Kool Exchange usage issues

[Stoke Laurie]

It has come to my attention that at least 1 contributor to kool Exchange has issues with the way in which other members of this forum use these downloads.
If anyone has a problem with the comercial or private use of their contributions could they make it clear here to avoid any further confusion.

My understanding was, and it was on this basis that I have contributed, that anyone was free to use anything that I made available, in any way they felt useful.

[Chris_Seahorn]

Not taking the bait. Jolly good try though.

[Stoke Laurie]

No traps here Chris, just straight forward question about the use of matterials that have been put in the public domain. Perhaps as a major contributor you could make your position clear, as I said above, to avoid any further confusion.

[Chris_Seahorn]

Then this must be about hurt feeling that I'm not giving you enough respect. Take a peek at this:
http://flex.hobby-site.com/examples/respect.jpg

That is what developers who base parts of their products on others code do to gain respect. You might want to read this from time to time to learn a few tricks to avoid this so others may not feel like unpaid henshall employees. Good luck to you.

[Stoke Laurie]

Chris, I have no idea why you launch public attacks in this way, I am certainly not looking for respect, only the weak would need constant praise.
I did read this very carefully,
This Editor is offered in good faith and as wide open source code for the Koolmoves community.
Linkbacks are not required but I won't argue with anyone who wants to mention me in the credits :)
So I started this thread to resolve any issues anyone has with their contributions.
You will recall in the past that I have sought your permission to use your work, and you have asked me to remove your name.

[Chris_Seahorn]

Public attack? Who brought this up here? You are referring to an article published at my site from my server which I might add mentioned no specific names or places this occurs. Did I bring this in here? I think not.

As far as MY source, yes...nothing is required...but when I get nothing...not even so much as a mention...must I also be respectful? Really Stoke. Back away while you are ahead.

I would also like to say that you asked about the RSS Feed Reader and that one my friend was GNU. I thought it rude you asked at the time. Not too long ago a user asked here if he could redistribute my source and he got my blessing. He did not ask to sell it and if he had I would have probobly only asked for

1. A credit
2. That he/she at least make the effort to change a color or two and not use it natively :)

That is what commands respect. Basing an entire career on open code (uncredited code at that)...does not.

Still glad you brought this up here?

[Stoke Laurie]

Not taking the bait. Jolly good try though.
Oh yes I think you have.

I am very pleased that I brought this into the open. A few facts for you.

1. The thread in which I displayed your editor was for YOUR benefit, not mine, in an attempt to display it's usefulness, even though if you remember, you were reluctant to help make it work. I was the one who helped others with it's use.

2. Why you would choose to complain about this issue anywhere but here I have no idea.

3. If you had replied to my private mail on the subject, there would have been no reason to have gone public.

[Chris_Seahorn]

Glad you got it to "work" for me :)

Good luck with sales Stoke. Later.

[Stoke Laurie]

Glad we have had this conversation, hope it acts as a warning to others.
By the way, over 800 downloads of my templates from Kool exchange, no credits that I'm aware of, hear me crying into me beer?

[Bob Hartzell]

There is a clear Terms of Use statement for KoolExchange. The way I read those terms, there is no clause saying that giving credit is mandatory. I presume that people can add their own terms of use for their contributions.

[Bob Hartzell]

It is ironic that some time ago, there was a complaint that downloads from KoolExchange in general were too low.

[Chris_Seahorn]

Again, I did not bring this in here but I say again since I guess I wasn't clear.....anyone can use anything they want in any way you want. But as I stated earlier if you CHOOSE to sell code I submit and you CHOOSE not to even have the courtesy to think to mention me or credit me on your own...yes...in fact...I will feel it within my right to think of them as I wish. If I choose to write articles about the practice at my website using my server I consider it my business.

For years I have disliked people who do this, have clearly shown that in my post history here as well as everywhere and am not about to change my ways simply because Stoke Laurie (who in fact sells my uncredited code) wants to somehow justify the practice after getting hurt feelings reading an article from my personal website. The day anyone quotes policy for me at my sites is the day monkeys fly :)

If anyone sees that as a "WARNING" not to use my submitted code or somehow not within my right to feel, I'm sorry if I disagree. I do however respect your right to "feel" as you wish.

[Bob Hartzell]

The terms of use state that contributions are not supposed to be resold. I have been a little slow in figuring out what this thread has been about.

[Chris_Seahorn]

Years ago I heard a great lecture at an MMUG meeting that revolved around opensource. My memory isn't that great but I'll try to convey what the lecturer was putting out and how I've always agreed. It involves two apple cart vendors.

Lets say we have a guy who grows apples and gives them away at the curbside to the needy. They are not perfect apples, nor apples worth winning ribbons, but they are the best apples he can provide. He works hard on his apples. He does not sell his premium apples and give away his substandard apples (ones which he would not sell due to their being less than worthy) for instance. He also did not feel the need to place any restrictions on how many apples could be taken or where they could be eaten because it was assumed whoever took apples was in need and would be thankful and courtious and appreciative.

One day, he finds his Apples are completely gone and one of his usual patrons tells him that a gentleman stopped by and grabbed up all the apples. To make matters worse, this same gentleman was now selling those same apples right down the road. He heads off to see what this is about and sure enough, there are his apples for sale. This person only gives away substandard apples but sells any worth eating. He sells the gems and gives away the ones that are useless to him as profit because he knows nobody else would or could sell them. Right then and there the first little apple grower decides he will no longer grow and hand out apples so other people can take them and sell them without courtesy given to his efforts in making it possible. Choosing to continue isn't an option becuse he can't possibly take the chance now that this new vendor was so blatant and will obviously just grab up any apples he places at the curb. He has no desire to stand over the apple cart to watch it everyday and simply gives up on apples all together. Not knowing what happens to your apples is one thing, having it thumbed in your nose is another.

In the end...who loses really?

Not the first apple vendor since he gained no profit (nor chose to) and simply saves himself some work not having to grow apples.

Not the new apple vendor because he gets to make some money on free apples. This vendor who quit growing apples will not affect him because he will find more free apples somewhere and happily repeat the process.

The only people who lose are the people who were in need of those free apples.

Maybe I'm expecting too much as far as the use of my apples. Then again...maybe not.


The grey area for Stoke was in me asking him to remove my name from the RSS Reader that was also incorporated in his "inventory" and he took that as an indication to just go nuts with my code as he wished. People should really read back our histories and see just how much of me is the edit suite as well as the "community" template. I asked to remove my name from it because it was released as GNU and I was disgusted that my friend even asked to use it commercially. He didn't ask before hand, I was presented with a link that already had it incorporated. A done deal. I think Stoke will also agree from that moment on our "friendship" started going downhill...completely due to my attitude. It's no coincidence I never submitted that to the Exchange. There was a reason.

I also had no desire to paint a big red bullseye on Stoke and even my blog article mentioned no specific names or places. It spoke of the practice like the apple cart analogy. Stoke turned the gun on himself here and only a guilty person would ever do that. If that means I'm off his christmas card list I just can't worry that. If it makes the code giver the bad guy and the code reseller (which again I have no problem with if duly credited...which costs nothing against the profit made) the good guy....that is just nutty. I am however a little tired of the posts to check out the edit suite that has a 99 euro price tag and acting as if it was a labor of love. That is called getting thumbed in the nose with your own code and while it may impress new users or other users, I personally am unimpressed.

To wrap up , as I recall, not a single user has entered this forum and blatantly shown a commercial template in site check or otherwise that they are selling based on the heavily downloaded one made by Stoke at the Exchange. He however has done that to me....numerous times. If that constitutes "crying in my beer" someone please hand me a tissue :)

[Stoke Laurie]

Thank you Chris, you have made your position very clear, except for the following few simple points,
1. Your comments on your blog were on the front page of your signature link, if you didn't want forum users to read it you should not have put the link here. I also notice that you have now removed the offending document in which there was no doubt in any ones mind who you were talking about. By the way screen grabs are a great tool.

2. Your text editor has never been sold to anyone, I set up an example because in the form it exists in the exchange it will neither load or save a file, both of which are required to make it of any use, If you read back the thread whare this was explained, I included that the save code was taken from one of your earlier examples.

3. I have no idea why you were offended that I asked for your permission to use your K-blog, you claim that the very act of asking was rude, yet you claim not being asked is the problem. Again your comment was untrue, I gave you an isolated link to view the gui that I had used which included your name, and you asked me to remove it.

4. The terms and conditions of the Koolexchange state that I am free to include it in my work, but not sell the content in volumes or as libraries. I have checked and this statement in these conditions refers to the copying and distribution of the content in which it appears in Koolexchange, rather than the sale of products produced from the component parts.

Chris you have always stated that you feel you give more than you receive, and I doubt that anyone would disagree that you represent a skilled and knowledgeable presence here and on other forums, but if you give something away and someone makes good use of it I thought you would be pleased, but clearly not.
I am surely not the only person using Kool moves for commercial gain and I make these comments for clarification not arguement on behalf of all users of this forum who have used any of your contributions to Koolexchange in their commercial projects.

[Chris_Seahorn]

I support the use of my code in commercial projects. I can't say it anymore clearly than I already have.

Much like being a kid and being told to take the garbage out by my dad I was never able to use the fact I took the garbage out at allowance time as leverage. Why? Because he had to tell me to do it.

This is similar :)

[blanius]

Might I suggest this thread is done? I think we're clear on how everyone feels and no further clarification is really needed here. If you guys want to discuss it further I suggest PM and email. Any further discussion at this point is counter productive

Thread Closed