killer intro, design, and interface

[Sigma3]

Hadron, you bring up some good points. First of all, you're right about opinions, and it was not my intention to say "Balthaser is wrong, I am right." It WAS my intention to try to evoke a response and find out why there is such an attraction to the site. You gave some valid examples.

On the other hand, I think my argument is far from refuted. I never said that HTML is the future, or better, or even appropriate for this situation. But the point is that a lot of people (maybe myself included) are still in the mindset of merging other media on the internet. Your browser screen is not a magazine, nor a TV show, nor a slide show or kiosk. It's an entirely new medium. I'm thrilled that people are still experimenting with that idea, and trying new things. Balthaser did that - they translated other media to the web, and they did it well. What worries me is when others continue to emulate that format.

I guess I sound restrictive. I don't want to be one of the people who say "the internet is this, it is not that." At the same time I'd like to think that people will start to realize how to make the best use of the medium. Balthaser is not interactive... you sit back and enjoy the ride. And apparently people do enjoy it. I did too, but I think that's entirely separate from saying it's a good web site. It's a good advertisement in web form. And I think people who emulate that, only inevitably not as well, are not really contributing to a better 'net.

What I classify as "better sites" show off both the current kinetic capabilities of the medium AND allow user interaction. They display things that WORK, not just things that ARE. If you're going to connect the whole world in a big wild world, it seems like you might want to have them interact in some way.

Now back to the top. I'm glad that Balthaser exists. I'm glad that I can look at it and say "okay, they did this, and that tells me I can do it, only different." However, what we have here is a forum of developers (interacting, and through lowly HTML no less) who seem to think that Balthaser is a paragon of design. We've already seen one copycat that started this thread; how many more do we need?

Finale: every project has its execution, and if you find one that works, great. Making it work BETTER, however, involves looking a lot more at the nature of the format and making that work to your advantage.

-- JUST MORE OF MY OPINIONS --

[Hadron]

Now that was very well said. And you are correct that Balthaser is more of an ad than it is interactive.

I still happen to think it is a good web site, even without the intro. Balthaser has an impact that people wish to emulate. I see it as trying to get the same "feeling" across that Balthaser is so capable of, a feeling of energy and synergism. I would HATE to see a bunch of Balthaser clones pop up that really do nothing new.

I am glad that you take more of a pioneer approach to the technology and I think that in some respects so does balthaser. The problem arises when people use sites such as balthaser as a template for their own creativity and practice. Of course you have already stated this.

Balthaser is a muse, a bit of inspiration as to what is possible.

I know you did not specifically mean HTML. What can I say, since my introduction to flash, I have become a HTML basher.

I like your response, very thoughtful. It is a good reminder that this great web is still an infant.
What will it become and where will it go? I don’t know. I do know that Balthaser sets an example and not a standard. It interacts with me on an emotional level, showing me what is possible not what should be done.

Balthaser is a strange phenomenon that cannot be explained easily.

“It is a riddle, rapped in a mystery, inside an enigma.” J

Also remember the service that Balthaser provides. Their web site tells the viewer without a doubt what they do and what they are capable of, it is by designe an advertisment. Im not sure what level of interaction is required in this particullar instance. Knowing what Balthaser provides in the way of a service, what one thing would you change about their site? Just curious.

Best Regards,
Mark

[Edited by Hadron on 08-10-2000 at 07:39 PM]

[Sigma3]

Sometimes it takes a second try to say what you really meant to say.

Anyway, I guess I'm just bored with the sort of ad that Balthaser has. Theirs is better than most, and probably just has already been copied everywhere.

My point is: I know what an internet company is going to tell me they can do... the same as every other internet company. To make a difference, the only thing to do is show off your work. But I guess in a way, Balthaser has done that with the structure of their site and the emotion of their movements. I'm probably reacting to their site now on a second or third level, and I shouldn't be doing that. Time to step back out of the box for a second.

Anyway, to conclude this localized debate: Balthaser is still not going to be one of my favorite sites, and my critiques stand. But I was coming at them from maybe 180 degrees from where I should have.

And this sums up my feelings on the "style" I am sick of perfectly: http://www.wrongwaygoback.com/gaulle...urbation.shtml

We still haven't discussed this issue from a broader point of view (ie, not Balthaser), though. I'd like to see what people think with regards to the whole web... although by now this is almost completely irrelevant to the original post.

[bluelife]

i would like the url 2


blue

[maxam]

First off I love opinions and forums. The feedback is priceless.

I agree 1000% with Hadron. Let’s get some things straight. At the moment Balthaser is not the greatest site honestly. No it's not interactive and not filled with any high-end action script. It's only one of the most popular sites out there so don't underestimate it. It has served as inspiration for the best Flash designers worldwide, and these are individuals I sometimes look up to. So in that respect Balthaser is the GOD of all sites, that spawned a nation of Flash artists who do, think, and create things differently. It spawned this whole discussion. They've most likely done something right. And that's why I admire it. Don't confuse admiration with imitation. It's that energy and inspiration that we as the next generation should feed off of. What is that God awful URL Sigma submitted? It's horrible even for HTML standards. On the other Sigma I'm glad you understand the purpose and effect of the Balthaser site.

I've seen sites that are a lot more visually appealing than Balthaser including my own now in production. It's more like the catalyst that makes you realize what you can do in Flash if you reach far enough into your own soul.

Don't be worried because my site will look nothing like Balthaser. I'm toying with idea of if I should even bother doing a movie. For business purposes there will be links to an HTML version of the site as well as a Flash version of the site, and maybe a short movie. The purpose of Balthasers movie is to show you what they can do while they still have your attention. And you get hooked immediately.

And as far as going to Balthaser for ideas, I'm not Destiny. Four months ago I gave my self the challenge of doing something better than Balthaser because at the time that was the most engaging and entertaining site I had ever seen. Why does Balthaser keep popping up? Because it's the springboard to jump off of and into something better. Am I hating on Destiny? Ya damn right. I don't really care how great a site looks or how advanced it is. Because once you out right take and copy what some else does, you lose all credibility with me. Would you really respect an Elvis look alike enough to buy their CD's? And where would Destiny be if Balthaser decided to pursue the matter of copyright infringement. Can you say - IN COURT? What really disturbs me is the fact that Destiny expected no one to realize what they have done. And if their higher ups didn't realize the situation, that's even more scary. Because that goes to show just how out of touch they really are with the field of business they chose to embark upon.

If you like interactivity that's great. If you want to experience more action scripting that's great as well. There is a Flash site for everyone. I happen to be into eyecandy, special effects and just sitting back and enjoying an entertaining ride. So that's what my site may reflect. To use a quote from a Webmonkey article I read "Would Star Wars (or the Matrix) have been such great movies if we had to click our way through them?" Nope! I speak from an artistic perspective. I'm not into dragging objects across a screen to see how long the connecting line gets. I'm not into Flash video games. I'm not into objects that either move away from or chase your mouse across the screen. I'm not into sliding effects or circle floating across the screen. I'm into doing things you've never seen before. I'm into the big "WOW that was cool, lets watch it again" effect. It's that same effect you used to get the first five times you saw the Balthaser site. Sites like Balthaser inspire artist to reach into their own souls and see what they can pull out. If you are a true artist at heart, what you pull out and implement in Flash will look nothing like another site.

There is always going to be a new site better than what you have seen that just popped up. I love that sort of thing. There will probably be countless sites better than my own. I don't really care. I'm going to leave my mark, and you'll know right away judging by the style and quality of work who's involved - after the experience. The ultimate and true purpose is not to be better than everyone at Flash development, but be different than everyone is. But that's just my opinion.

We should all be doing better sites than Balthaser and anything else out there and not imitating like Destiny. The better sites become the faster the Internet will evolve. The message Balthaser sends is that we have the power to change the Internet. Let’s all change it!

[Edited by maxam on 08-11-2000 at 10:21 AM]

[Sigma3]

If you're commenting on the low quality of the URL I posted, I think you missed the point. Watch it again.

[bluelife]

from sigma

"We still haven't discussed this issue from a broader point of view (ie, not Balthaser), though. I'd like to see what people think with regards to the whole web... although by now this is almost completely irrelevant to the original post."


well, basically, there is so much **** on the web, that it is unbelievable!
everybody thinks he's great, but almost nobody has got any feeling at all for a good web site.
look at the bad quality of some or a lot of the sites posted here and at flash zone, with "please check out my new site" - you can tell from the very first screen if the site has a graphical quality or not - but if there is no content - what is the point?
if i find a good looking website, be it html or flash, i take a look a couple of times, but ask me in a month, i've forgotten it.

the only sites i think are really good are sites that offer content, where i go back ocaasionaly to see what is happening.

blue

[maxam]

That's totally not true Blue (in regards to your comment of people not knowing what makes a good site). I've read plenty of books on a great site layout and are familiar with all the rules. Rules are made to be broken. There are plenty of people out there that know how to come up with a great site. And then there are others don't have a clue. Everyone can't be like Mike! Looks like content is your cup of tea. Wonderful then. You have your favorite site, so let us have ours. And to the folks that are trying to develop there skills to be able to develop a good site - why knock them. They are trying. I'll give credit to anybody new or professional that comes up with original content and art. I just took a look at rustedfaith.com. That style is totally not would I do. But it's a great freakin site. Flash allows artist to design they're own 2 dimensional world and show it to the rest of it. Give those that are actually developing sites credit. We should all realize that it takes more than just Flash 4 to do a really great web site. I'm using at least 6 programs myself to work on mine, and that number will increase. Not everybody can make proper use of all the different graphics apps to develop a site that has extraodinary impact. So when I see people using only Flash I give credit.
[Edited by maxam on 08-11-2000 at 02:53 PM]

[bluelife]

i've known balthaser, matinee, nrg, eye4u, kimble, and all the other great sitea for a long time.
there are rules, that also have to be broken, you are right.
but, imagine you hear a piece of music, ypu can say it's beeen played well, but i don't like it, it's the same with layout, i guess a lot of people have never even heard of kerning, and being able to change the line break distance, they choose a font, they write what they wan't in a font they think is ok,and that's it.
they wouldn't think about combining serif and non serif fonts, or the golden cut, or which colours mean what and inspire certain feelings in the user, and the rest of it.
this is what i'm talking about, not just if i like it personally, but if the design has a background, if someone has really thought about it and felt it.
most beginners just wan't to get some kind of site on the web, and most people are really scared or unable to critisise it.

blue

[lcavin]

"It interacts with me on an emotional level"

Thank you, that is the desired result of any advertisement. An advertisement, by definition is an example of what your company (or yourself) is capable of.

"it is by designe an advertisment. Im not sure what level of interaction is required in this particullar instance."

In my (humble) opinion, balthaser's site has all the required interaction, which is to say it has a submit form. I would recommend anyone who is looking for more content on their site to read the questions on the form, and consider it's purposes before making any statments to that effect.

hugs...
--Lou anne

[lcavin]

"We still haven't discussed this issue from a broader point of view (ie, not Balthaser), though. I'd like to see what people think with regards to the whole web..."

I agree with what you said earlier about not being able to define the web at this point, or perhaps any point. It is a phenomenon, in and of itself. Add the capability to freely and creatively express any idea you have and it evolves into an explosive vehicle for emotions, opinions, sensory stimulation, business, marketing, advertising, and every other factor you can think of.

The future impact of it is unfathomable...but I believe that it will be what we make it. That is to say-we can make a channel for either positive or negative forces-and if I may; improving the aesthetics and usability of the web never hurts in this regard.

Thanks 4 listening to my ramblings.

---Lou anne

[Hadron]

Bluelife

I really liked what you are saying. It made a hell of a lot of sense.
I guess we just have to be tolerant of the fact that the Internet is one big public swimming pool and nothing is going to change that. I fear the majority of the content will be ad-hock or turnkey.
And yes the weekend warriors will flock to FlashKit begging you to see their very first flash site that they spent 45 minutes working on. All in the hope that someone will say, “you got talent kid”. Seems rather straightforward.

The link sigma posted showed me a little satire on the same cookie cutter mentality you see at many. coms.
It sucks; I remember a web not so long ago 1994 when it was young and fresh. Then came big business followed by what we see today. The agony is that it still is a terrific medium with a lot of potential. However you usually have to wade through an ocean of **** to find anything new.


Im no flash guru. I have only been using flash for about 4 months. I have a lot to learn before I go on a publishing and posting rampage. I do however feel that I know what looks good and what does not.
I just revisited balthaser, something I have not done in a long time. Well first of all it’s still the same.
However it did “bring back that loving feeling”. There is for me this one site that I may be able to say changed the direction of my life. It was because of seeing balthaser, that I, “Forced my boss to buy flash”.
What can I say? I am in love. BALTHASER GOT ME PREGNATE’


AND IM A GUY.

Well I hope that someday I will have something to contribute. But for now all I can offer is my opinion.

Regards,
Mark

[bluelife]

yeah,i visit baltahsar too, and show it to friends, the intro used to double as long, it was better then i find.

blue

[maxam]

So there you have it folks. The jury is in. We have a verdict. The community is in agreement. Balthaser still rocks for what it's supposed to do!

[bluelife]

i thought the topic had actually changed to the fact that your site is better than balthasar and we wanted to see it -can you remember?


blue

[maxam]

My site is going to be better than Balthasers in terms of special effects and eyecandy. If you like these and the aformentioned ingredients, you will most likely agree with my oppinion. Please read the first few pages of these threads for other details. I will have my own soundtrack of originally produced music and it won't be Techno either. I'm going to incorporate some 3D graphics and animation as well which Balthaser doesn't. There will be a few surprises that I dare not mention here. But again read the earlier post for insight.

The site is not up yet unfortunately and is still in production and will continue to be until late September or early October. Sorry for the wait, but you can't rush quality. And please don't take my comments the wrong way. Even after I have revealed my site there may still be some folks who will think my site is actually not better than Balthasers. My oppionion of it being better actually comes from people (from the average admin person to programmers) who have dropped by my pad and seen what I'm doing.

Again if you like movies like the Matrix, and Invisible man and are really into special effects,you'll love what I'm offering. (and no the design of my UI does not mimic the UI's seen in the movie Matrix. I've seen Flash sites that have totally copied that. Even though it's technially a website, you should expect to see a movie, not just a website. I think I have given all enough of a preview.

With that said I'm not even going to mention it again.
[Edited by maxam on 08-14-2000 at 12:23 PM]

[bluelife]

well, may i see some other sites you have done?
- you obviously have a great deal of experience.

blue

[maxam]

Dude please read the prior messages. I have already stated I have 5 years graphics design experience (in graphics not Flash).I also stated that I have been studying Flash for 4 months. Although I don't have any Flash related works on the internet, I have done some CD based media for training companies (all done to get "start up" money for my business). It's sounds like you may be doubting my ability and questioning my integrity. That's good. I like when people do this with me. They are usually left in shock and made a true believer when they see what I'm really capable of. I like earning that type of respect in this field. I perform better under pressure (not to mention the adrenalin rush).But if you are merely just curious, I retract that last statement and I appreciate your strong interest. But please hold on a bit. It will be worth the wait.

[bluelife]

just thought you may like to know that your domain http://www.logofex.com, as stated under your profile, has not yet been registered, better be quick


blue

[maxam]

I know it's not registered yet. There is a reason for that just as there is a reason why you are so inquisitive. I like you though.