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Thread: [Resolved] AICC / Learning Management System Forum

  1. #41
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    Hi

    Could we move this discussion to the boardroom??

    Here's an online tutorial on how to use macromedia's learning extensions. http://www.trainingcafe.com/macromed...ning/index.htm

    It includes how to add a SCORM/AICC wrapper as well as using FScommand to send data to the API so that you can track users and test results.

    CARET (www.caret.cam.ac.uk) has nearly finished work on an open source LMS. We are now trying to get interest in using this LMS to develop Flash based elearning projects. This will be made using FScommand and SCORM wrappers and try and produce libraries of components that mean it is possible to create SCORM compliant elearning material using game and simulation teaching modules without need for any programming. If anyone has created any components that do this job please let me know.

    I've added a discussion group on the use of Flash for elearning on dissectionroom.com - http://everyone3179.community.everyo...s/directory.pl which is pretty empty right now but you can share the topic on your site through everyone.net

    Chris

  2. #42
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    Difference between AICC and SCORM

    I just found this string and wanted to comment on the fact that many developers seem to be using AICC and SCORM interchangeably. As far as I'm aware, the methods for passing information from AICC-compliant courseware and SCORM compliant courseware is pretty much different.

    For example, for SCORM communication, I think you would use fscommands like LMSSetValue and LMSFinish to send information out of Flash.

    In AICC, wouldn't you utilize the get and post methods to send information, after reading in the string that the LMS has sent you?

    So essentially, you need to develop somewhat seperately for both kinds of compliance. If I'm wrong, please correct me!

    Thanks...

    BTW, we're integrating two courses into Docent 5.01.

  3. #43
    Retired SCORM Guru PAlexC's Avatar
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    Yes, traditionally AICC is done through GET and POST with a form. SCORM essentially does the same thing behind the scenes. LMSGetValue and LMSSetValue are standard scorm commands that are part of an adapter, that handles all communication with the LMS through the AICC standard. It does all the dirty work, you just issue JavaScript Commands. My understanding is that it's the LMS's responsibility to provide a SCORM adapter for their LMS.

    I haven't run into Docent yet, but KnowledgePlanet does a wonderful job of docuementing and supporting integration. Saba's ok. I just went through an ordeal with a client who's using Edcor, and he used nothing but profanity to describe them.

  4. #44
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    Most LMS systems are designed by people who have little understanding of the users needs. The easiest thing to do is to write to a MSaccess database using ASP. I have designed an auto-producing CBT generator complete with question banks using the existing learning interactions. A good introduction to the learning interactions is in "Inside Flash" by Jody Keating of Fig leaf software. I use MSaccess for one simple reason-all the firms out there have it and ASP is free. It will restrict you to Microsoft servers but most big companies use it. In any event you can use XML to query any database. I generate xml from word documents to populate a CBT - no sweat. Hope this helps you.

  5. #45
    Sheep Amidst Wolves azaral's Avatar
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    I thought this string was getting moved? Did the Periodic Email get started? Are any of you fellow e-learning flashers looking for work in the Southern Maryland area? Will the Lakers win 4 in a row?

    All questions I'd like to have answers to. I'm getting swamped by this AICC/SCORM/LMS/FLASH stuff.

    Has anybody worked with this new BREEZE app?
    azaral aviv
    "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." - II Timothy 2:15

  6. #46
    Retired SCORM Guru PAlexC's Avatar
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    I am QUITE up on the SCORM 1.2 RTE spec these days.

    I'm actually building a nifty re-usable xml configurable control system for flash-based content that's compliant.

    If you're swamped let me know, I can definately help you out.

    pcolombo@weblearning.com
    "What really bugs me is that my mom had the audacity to call Flash Kit a bunch of 'inept jack-asses'." - sk8Krog
    ...and now I have tape all over my face.

  7. #47
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    If I remember right SCORM is a implementation of IMS written specifically for the DoD (Department of Deffence) with ICAO (International Civil Avation Org) specifications added.

    http://www.imsproject.org/
    http://www.adlnet.org/

    I agree that many times these LMS systems are overly complex and that the same thing can be acomplished with a much simplier method. Especially if you don't give a fig about tracking the training progress with a DB. A simple ASP Mailform on the back would be all that is needed there.

  8. #48
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    Oh yeah, I moved your thread. It was requested a couple of times to move it out of the Lounge and into the boardroom.

  9. #49
    Retired SCORM Guru PAlexC's Avatar
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    Originally posted by johnie
    If I remember right SCORM is a implementation of IMS written specifically for the DoD (Department of Deffence) with ICAO (International Civil Avation Org) specifications added.

    http://www.imsproject.org/
    http://www.adlnet.org/

    I agree that many times these LMS systems are overly complex and that the same thing can be acomplished with a much simplier method. Especially if you don't give a fig about tracking the training progress with a DB. A simple ASP Mailform on the back would be all that is needed there.
    SCORM is a different way of implementing the CMI data model created by IMS that was used in AICC. Using HACP and Get/Post with query strings was messy and complex.

    The problem is, most people DO give a fig about tracking training because of the need for assessments and recordkeeping, as well as pre-reqiusites.

    An ASP mailform can't track multiple sessions in the same course, can it?

    Didn't think so.

    SCORM is actually pretty simple. It's all basic javascript. The tricky part is timing when using Flash. ( Find your API, Issue your LMSInitialize, Verify your flash movie has loaded, yada yada...)

    Everything you need to know as a content developer is in the RTE Specification Doc (PDF) This is your bible. Print it and put it in an expensive binder.

    Once you've got it down though, it's pretty simple. If anyone wants a more detailed version or some samples just drop me a line.

    It's really neet to look at when this thread started, and how little I knew way back then about this stuff.
    Last edited by PAlexC; 05-13-2003 at 09:20 AM.
    "What really bugs me is that my mom had the audacity to call Flash Kit a bunch of 'inept jack-asses'." - sk8Krog
    ...and now I have tape all over my face.

  10. #50
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    Originally posted by PAlexC


    An ASP mailform can't track multiple sessions in the same course, can it?

    Didn't think so.

    The need to track multiple sessions (Or any session except the results) in the same course would be irelevent if the course was short and the only information that was pertinet was that Employee X sucessfully completed Training X.

    Keeping data like this in a centralized databse depends on the the situation and the corperate culture. Believe it or not there are many corperations that do not allow personal employee information to be placed in electronic media in any form. They do not keep electronic files becuase they are paranoidly concerned that much about security. These companies, several of which I have personally had the pleasure and mis-pleasure to do work for, keep all of their employee and training files in hard copy and seperate out the hard copy's to several files (One for managers, One for HR/Personnel and one for Payroll/benifits - which does get stored electronically).

    Why?

    In employement law there are also several odd situations where you would want the information to be seperated physically and with 0 chance of the info being accessed except by a very very select few people period (EG; the employement application form and the I9 form required to hire someone should be kept physically in seperate loactions if not in seperate buildings) . Things like the info off the I9 form, Social Security Numbers, Home Address, any Race/Religion/Age/Disability/ Rehabiltation Status/ DIsibilty or Country of Orgin info (Required to be collected in order to compile the EEO-1 report that is required if you employee more than 100 people or employ 50 or more peopele and have federal contracts greater than 50,000) should not be kept with the employment application and employee training files.

    In otherwords you may or may not want to store the information collected from the training in a Database but rather just in a hard file or if it is kept in a databse you want to make sure that it is not kept in the main employee record database. EG; you don't want the employees social sec#, address, and other personal info stored in the same DB as the training record. This would be becuase you want to make the training record available to the mangers but absoulutly under no circumstances do you want the Direct Mangers to have the info that would be on a I9 or EOE-1 preparation form as it would open you up to potential lawsuits. However I have seen plenty of Boxed Elearning suites with LMSes which ask this information which should not be going to the direct supervisor directly!! So in otherwords many companies are rightfully parniod about LMSes.

    These same companies also tend to wory about data security. If it is on a network and the network is open their is a chance for it to be hacked. Its that simple. If it is Web Based over the World Wide Web their is even motre so of that chance.

    Furthermore many industries, especially service industries, are set up so that the manager in the field who needs the training completion info may not even have access to a computer but yet they would have a central office which the CBT or WBT can be given (Usually also to process payroll). In this situation the WBT or CBT would print a certificate out and give a copy to the Field Manger but not track it in a DB for the employee as they take the course but it would be pointless to have the training kept in a central DB as the Field manger is the only one who would need to have access to the fact that Course X was completed and they have 0 access to a computer. This is actually quite a common setup for many companies.

  11. #51
    Retired SCORM Guru PAlexC's Avatar
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    Actually, in Europe they can't track any training without getting approval. There are very strict guidelines about tracking electronic communication. Most of what you said holds true.

    Companies who have a knowledge management system also need to generate reports on who's completed what, and on performance.

    We deal mainly in compliance courseware, Sexual Harassment and Diversity, so it's really for insurance purposes that a company can prove it has mandated this training for all employees, and that they've taken it.

    The need to track multiple sessions (Or any session except the results) in the same course would be irelevent if the course was short and the only information that was pertinet was that Employee X sucessfully completed Training X.
    In ideal world, that would be the case, but it isn't. You also have to deal with re-takes of courses, for people who want to review the subject matter without creating a new progress record, or people who failed the first time and need to take it again, while storing the number of attempts.

    Using a simple mailform might be adequate for small-scale deployments, but companies with 30K plus users need more robust information for their money.

    LMS's are here to stay, but I think as long as people stick with the SCORM standard, it's really not that big of a deal. Basic " Employee X has successfully completed TrainingX." Is no more difficult in SCORM than it would be in a mailform.
    "What really bugs me is that my mom had the audacity to call Flash Kit a bunch of 'inept jack-asses'." - sk8Krog
    ...and now I have tape all over my face.

  12. #52
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    is anyone still reading this thread ...?? i am a Flash-er working for the air force in florida and have been commanded to create flash lessons using the 2004 SCORM standards. i can't seem to find any real answers out there on the basics of creating this. i have created SCORM conformant lessons using all flash which was a PITA !! but i need to make it work on an LMS (meridian if anyone has heard of that) and some of the JS calls are kicking my butt. if anyone can help, i would appreciate it alot !!

    did the forum or maillist ever get started ..?? that seems like such an awesome idea that i would love to be a part of.

    thanks for the help.

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