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  1. #21
    FK Catwoman Aria's Avatar
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    Originally posted by CNO
    Oh, BTW, you should check out the new "issue" of Flashmagazine, with some interesting articles about the limitations of the Flash player, and particularly the article called "Flash in the Pan" which interviews Greg Rewis of Macromedia and addresses the issue of how broadband will affect Flash design.
    really cool article CNO -

    Thanks for sharing

    A

  2. #22
    Senior Citizen phacker's Avatar
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    Sometimes, working within limits (whatever they might be) can lead to a cleaner product. It's easy to get carried away and add "stuff" just for effect. I find that by trying to keep everything optimized for lower level users--I force myself to stick to just the essentials to tell the story, which leads to a leaner more thought out design.

  3. #23
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    This is probably the first thread in this forum that has actually touched upon the subject of "design techniques" in a serious way.

    Ive been looking for a while for good tips on webdesign, using Flash of course, on this board but get a bit peeved by people posting questions in the wrong forum and using extremely vague "subject" description for their questions. I have to search through pages of questions put on the wrong forum to find a question about what the forum actuall touches upon !! Frustrating.....

    Thanks for a good thread !!

    This is something for the "Moderators" to think about. Inform the posters that their question belongs on another forum.

    Action scripting, tweening, importing bitmaps, is my site good, etc etc all belong in different forums.

    Im gonna read through this thread again, it was soooo good

  4. #24
    FK Catwoman Aria's Avatar
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    Thanks for feedback TheBritt
    I agree this forum should be more about discussing such issues and flagging others that concern and affect our work .

    Heres btw a good article from cre@ate online :
    http://www.createonline.co.uk/magazi...e_no=14&page=1


    a nice little debate going there on some hot issues
    A

  5. #25
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    Originally posted by Aria
    Thanks for feedback TheBritt
    I agree this forum should be more about discussing such issues and flagging others that concern and affect our work .

    Heres btw a good article from cre@ate online :
    http://www.createonline.co.uk/magazi...e_no=14&page=1


    a nice little debate going there on some hot issues
    A
    Nice one "Aria", thats just the thing im looking for

  6. #26
    Swollen Member jhbiddle's Avatar
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    "when the only tool you ahve is a hammer all your problems start looking like nails"

    This is true of any creative process, and a good designer will understand that the solution should not be defined by software, bandwidth or alpha tweening.

    Whatever the technical limitations, good design is good design.

    amen

  7. #27
    Moderator CNO's Avatar
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    Hallelujah!

    A controversial discussion, for sure, but interesting points raised by famous Benetton photographer Oliviero Toscani at Ars Electronica. A quote:

    "Excitement about new technologies and software justifies all our inactions," he said. "We are obsessed with communication and technology, and we foolishly imagine that this will somehow save the planet. But all it does is keep us so busy that we don't have to think about anything. We have become very, very lazy."

    Asked for years to come to Europe's most prestigious digital arts festival, Toscani finally agreed -- and blasted the whole idea of digital art, suggesting that Ars Electronica might be better off without electricity.

    "Then you wouldn't do so much crap, so much garbage," he said.
    Of course, he did have a point.

    What to do about that? Again and again, Toscani returned to the theme of resisting mass culture -- or, in the case of digital artists, resisting the urge to do things just because you can, rather than out of any strong and clear inspiration.

    "The artist should have the power to free himself from his own fear," he said. "We have to have the courage to risk being different."
    The full article appears in Wired online here:
    http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,46565,00.html

  8. #28
    FK Catwoman Aria's Avatar
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    owwww.....thanx for the article Chris !

    Its a good one

    i find interesting that this 'challenge' about complacency comes from a photographer who used powerful imagery to promote a brand that thrives under controversial marketing.

    I remember mostly the ad with the AIDS sufferer and its religious connotations, underneath that picture of the dying man surrounded by his family you had the bright, green Benetton logo -- >the ad did the rounds and the debates were ferocious, it attracted lots of publicity and ..... you guessed it : everybody was talking about Benetton !

    i have to agree with his views about technology - to a certain extent :the rapid development of the web has rekindled a sense of optimism within the developed
    world. For almost two decades, we have been facing a failure of imagination and creativity.As the process of digital convergence accelerates, divisions between different professions are being broken down. People
    are acquiring new skills and creating innovative forms of
    artistic expression and with cheaper global communications, they are discovering how easy it is becoming to work and play together across time and space.

    As Sartre pointed out, technology is a crystallised praxis. It expresses the social relations and the social knowledge of a given historical era

    A




  9. #29
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    Originally posted by Aria
    I remember mostly the ad with the AIDS sufferer and its religious connotations, underneath that picture of the dying man surrounded by his family you had the bright, green Benetton logo -- >the ad did the rounds and the debates were ferocious, it attracted lots of publicity and ..... you guessed it : everybody was talking about Benetton !
    that's so weird.
    I just finished reading about that in my english media textbook about an hour ago....

  10. #30
    Retired Mod aversion's Avatar
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    there are some interesting points raised here.

    i'm going to the fresh conference in sydney on the 28/29 september, is anyone else going?

    there promises to be some stimulating debate about the role of design in the media and new media in particular. Lots of good speakers.


  11. #31
    "i guarantee that, if you directed the average internet user to something like designgraphik or gmunk or submethod or praystation... 90% would leave within the first 2 minutes...."


    interestingly enough - statistically (from viewing and processing log files).

    an average user spends more than 30 minutes on my http://www.once-upon-a-forest.com site - and trapping IP numbers more than 90 % mail me after they're finished wanting to know...

    "if they saw everything?"
    "is this a game?"
    "what the hell is it?"
    "beautiful"
    "horrid"

    etc.


    the same stats for PrayStation are more than doubled.

    there is something to be said about confusion - and not understanding a concept. confusion / discovery.

    --

    "... 90% would leave within the first 2 minutes...."

    I would think would be more an issue of aesthetics - and I assume people bail early on poor design. rather than a notion of people bailing because they don't understand.

    just my 2 pennies.

  12. #32
    Moderator CNO's Avatar
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    Originally posted by PrayStation
    "... 90% would leave within the first 2 minutes...."

    I would think would be more an issue of aesthetics - and I assume people bail early on poor design. rather than a notion of people bailing because they don't understand.

    just my 2 pennies.
    I'd also say that it has to do with one's capacity to appreciate art - the people who wouldn't be interested in experimental interfaces are the same people who look at modern art and say "my kid could do that".

    I think the point should be more comparing experimental navigation and interactive experiences with a purpose to those designed either for the sake of being different, or because someone didn't want to bother putting the extra effort into making it so.

    In relation to that article I linked to (and I hope you'll forgive me for using you as an example, but it's convenient ) - there's a lot of people doing things because they want to be "the next Josh Davis or 2advanced, etc.", but the funny thing is that most of the people who are in books like New Masters of Flash, or even the lesser known names who are all churning out consistantly good work are doing so because they love doing what they do, celebrity be damned.

    I do have to say I disagree somewhat with Oliviero Toscani - while his overall theme was on the money, it seems like certain aspects were built up specifically to cause controversy. For example, in the Renaissance, it was easy to pick out great painters, because the materials were difficult to come by. Now that art materials are more accessible, a lot more malls are having painting shows. But that doesn't make the art any less valid - what would be a crime is if people didn't push themselves to try, or rested on their laurels instead of trying "new and improved" things.

    Anyone else up for charitable donations, in two-cent increments or more?

  13. #33
    FK Catwoman Aria's Avatar
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    Originally posted by aversion
    .

    i'm going to the fresh conference in sydney on the 28/29 september, is anyone else going?

    there promises to be some stimulating debate about the role of design in the media and new media in particular. Lots of good speakers.

    links pls

    let us know how it was
    im going to FF in Amsterdam later in Oct

    A

  14. #34
    FK Catwoman Aria's Avatar
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    Originally posted by PrayStation

    the same stats for PrayStation are more than doubled.

    well yeah

    the majority of ppl who visit Praystation are flashers (niche group) who visit for updates and downloads etc and are happy to stick around , navigate and explore the site. We re not talking about the average web user here, are we?

    A

  15. #35
    caithness massiv
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    josh -- your point is well taken, and i think aria beat me to my response

    it would be my guess that your users are 'not-so-average' -- i mean it's not like you have my mom going to your site... (who, btw, is the epitome of 'average' in the internet realm... she checks email, goes to yahoo, buys some stuff, and plays some games... every once in a while, she'll look up something on google)

    now, i've showed your site to lots of people at my school (art institute of colorado) because it inspires me... and for the most part, the people that i've shown have gone on to explore and learn from you ... they come up to me later in the week with a brand-new view on what's possible with these web technologies...

    but every once in a while, i show it to a person that i consider to be 'average' in the internet realm (like my mom)... and the majority of those people take one look at the black/grey ... they hear the music ... and they're done with it...

    one way or another, i don't want my comment to be taken the wrong way... i listed those sites because they inspire me and many other designers to be more creative and unique with the digital world... but imho, designers shouldn't be emulating any of these styles for mainstream sites because they will loose users through confusion
    [Edited by agent vivid on 09-08-2001 at 09:09 PM]

  16. #36
    Swollen Member jhbiddle's Avatar
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    resolved

    hi there.

    nice to see a concentration of clearly intelligent designers in one place. Heartening.

    Speaking as an industrial designer, my tools are basically the same, the user is the same and the problems sure are the same, damn it.

    Sometimes I can't get the finish or tolerance I want. Sometimes I can't get the best materials. Sometimes I have to compromise so the aged and the yound can use the same product.

    And you know what? THAT is what differentiates the good designer from the bad- working SMART.

    Keep on pushing.

  17. #37
    Retired Mod aversion's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Aria
    Originally posted by aversion
    .

    i'm going to the fresh conference in sydney on the 28/29 september, is anyone else going?

    there promises to be some stimulating debate about the role of design in the media and new media in particular. Lots of good speakers.

    links pls

    let us know how it was
    im going to FF in Amsterdam later in Oct

    A
    http://www.freshconference.com

    i'll let you knwo exactly how cool it is


  18. #38
    Retired Mod aversion's Avatar
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    Originally posted by PrayStation

    "... 90% would leave within the first 2 minutes...."

    I would think would be more an issue of aesthetics - and I assume people bail early on poor design. rather than a notion of people bailing because they don't understand.
    what is the take here on what people are capable and willing to understand and explore? Thrirty minutes is a hell of a long time in the internet world, i can understand how a user that spends more than 5 minutes at once-upon-a-forest could spend 30, but how many "average users" would respond to such a site?

    I showed my girlfriend a couple of sites the other day, i showed her http://www.once-upon-a-forest.com and modern living. She's a creative person who doesn't know that such things are available on the web and she responded enthusiastically to both sites, the aesthetic and aural sensations of once upon a forest and the social commentary and wit of modern living. She is not exactly the average user, but she gave me faith that people are willing to explore and absorb new forms (to her) of communication and display.

    But I am losing faith in people, i would hope that given the choice people would rather watch films like 'memento' than 'the patriot' but evidence proves me wrong. People are prodded and cojoled with burgers to go and see brainless blockbusters. Memento is a brilliantly conceived film, begging to stimulate and intrigue you but it's not given the chance... people are set up for this 5 second thrill pattern, the trend in films this past summer has been for a major studio picture to open big and drop off by more than 50% the next week, disappearing altogether under the next pile of steaming dung thrown at our weekends.

    I can't believe how fast we are expected to absorb such empty experiences and move on, only to dwell though sleepness nights on the social righteousness of our sensual experiences and to smother our intellectual curiosity with a bombardment of... crap.

    i don't know where i'm going with this rant, i am just so frustrated by the lack of motivation and stimulation in modern culture. People seem to be so happy with their tv and their mall and their john grisham... does this sound elitist?? I guess i just don't understand, it's so easy for designers to create some sort of post modern take on mall culture but how do you reach out and compete with those malls for the very people designers are constantly satirising....


    [Edited by aversion on 09-30-2001 at 03:16 PM]

  19. #39
    Swollen Member jhbiddle's Avatar
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    I think there needs to be differentiation between two different types of flash design, perhaps. I would expect rate and clarity of input in an 'arts' cinema, and someting much more accessible if I were to watch CNN.

    I totally agree with what the previous thread was saying. So I think as designers we need to understant when and when bot to challenge our users.

    There is obviously a large overlap between these extremes- art and engineering? - and that's what us designers are here to balance.

  20. #40
    FK Catwoman Aria's Avatar
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    Originally posted by jhbiddle
    I think there needs to be differentiation between two different types of flash design, perhaps
    i agree with this as well, my only caution is the way 'good design' is often confused with 'good use of technology'
    which can result to technology-led design .ie. does good flash = good web experience?

    I think our industry (only playing devils advocate here btw ) jumped in quickly and was first to pat itself on the back (in a similar manner like the cd rom industry )which has led to people designing for designs sake rather than looking at the real communication problems that the client maybe trying to solve.

    Now as far as experimental sites are concerned i guess the same logic that applies to arts can also be applied here. Some audiences will understand it and will be able to appreciate it , others will ask 'what is it ? ' or 'what is supposed to do? ' others will be inspired and touched by it .

    But i think for as long as the web is seen as an 'information environment' ,a place where ppl go to access information, questions will be raised about the functionality of sites and their purpose.

    A

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