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  1. #41
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    aversion, you are the coolest.

    Your posts are my favs by far.

    just thought I'd let you know.

    carry on....

  2. #42
    Retired Mod aversion's Avatar
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    aww shucks... thanks



  3. #43
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    resolved Dear Aria

    What a wonderfull question, that you´ve posted out !!!

    I´m in a nearly same position, but slightly different.

    I started to work with website production for some 2 years ago. So you might be a hell lot better than I am, bu that´s not the issue here.

    I´ve already have an edu. as a typographer, so I´ve got experience with the relevant software appz in that area of branch. And then I started to learn flash and all the other software appz.

    Ít´s a hell, trying to satisfy diffrérent customers, but one thing that I learned. Never to comprimise with your self. there is at reason why they asked you. Does´nt matter if you´re going solo or if you´re employed by a company. Cause there is a reason why they asked you. They asked you, because they like your way of doing things, they know the style, that you´r doing.

    I have this problem. Whenever I try to talk a customer out of doing something, that diverts from their already made promotion strategy, then I get hell.

    They want it to be so cool, and then they are ready to ditch their promotion material. and me as e typogarpher, I have a very difficult time with that.

    I think it´s about time, that we as designers, should be more aggresive in that direction. The artistic language on the net, has become better and better as the years has gone. But there are still many sites, looking very bad.

    I´m trying to make a group here in Denmark, where we discuss the form, and artistic language. The companies are´nt aware that they hvae to look at the net, as if it were a print job, but without printing. and ofcourse there much more possibilities. But we must keep the "red line" alive. Otherwise we will end as the loosers on that market.

    I mean are´nt we supposed to be the experienced ones ???
    We have to tell the customer what right and what wrong, right ??? Just because we have alot of opportunities, dose´nt mean that we have to use ém all.

    That was my words for you, hope that you got something out of that. Hope that my english is understandable - if not ... i`m sorry

  4. #44
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    Smile design

    hey aria

    im a designer that have made traditional graphic design for some years before i resently began on webdesign.
    the low bandwith-old browser problem that you talk about is a challenge.
    in traditional design you have a limitation of what is fysicaly posible-
    the technologi in printing and bookbinding have some limits, and the describtion of a good designer is a designer who make a great looking thing that actualy is posible to produce.
    no matter how good your idea is - its no good if only 5% can see it.
    but in 2-3 years its over - then every computer is able to see everything

    jonas


    Originally posted by Aria
    ive been thinking recently following a presentation at work about our role as designers :

    How do you feel by all the limitations that surround you : ie low bandwith, old browsers, slow CPUs etc.... do these frustrate you and make you feel that they compromise your creative work OR do you see them as tools, challenges that will help you streamline your work and message.

    Its only now that this presentation came in that i actually sat donw and reflected on both my work and my role as a designer : what is it that we do ?

    I think the core of what we do is to communicate , in clear and simple ways, rather than getting carried away with the latest and trendiest techniques and tricks out there. Its so easy to get attached and passionate with what a certain app can produce that we get to a point where we think that the client wont be impressed without these.
    Has anyone been in a situation like this ?

    Id really like to hear some views here from other designers
    A

  5. #45
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    Re: design

    Originally posted by prometous

    but in 2-3 years its over - then every computer is able to see everything

    jonas


    yeah but we'll still be moaning about the fact that netscape 12 doesn't support holograms as well as IE 23 does...



  6. #46
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    Re: Re: design

    Originally posted by aversion
    yeah but we'll still be moaning about the fact that netscape 12 doesn't support holograms as well as IE 23 does...
    A mistake in your logic, Aversion - Netscape would readily skip version numbers 12-22 if it meant keeping up with IE numerically.

    Glad to see this post bumped back to the top.

  7. #47
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    Re: Dear Aria

    Originally posted by egander
    I´m trying to make a group here in Denmark, where we discuss the form, and artistic language. The companies are´nt aware that they hvae to look at the net, as if it were a print job, but without printing. and ofcourse there much more possibilities
    On the clients promotional strategy issue :
    The corporation that i work for commissions all their logo designs and re-branding requierements to an outside agency and its always with print in mind - then i have to work with these logos for online (sites and online promotions) and make the most of it which doesnt often yield great results and often involves lots of compromising etc!

    good luck with your desin group in Denmark -- sounds like a great idea

    A

  8. #48
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    I think of it this way: the 3.5 minute pop song was largely a creation of the recording time on 45rpm vinyl disc. But Elvis Presley, the Beatles and the Rolling Stones etc worked round the limitation pretty well .

    TV isn't cinema. Flash isn't TV. The only time the limitations become obvious (IMHO)is when we all fall back on the most obvious things the medium can deliver.



    How do you feel by all the limitations that surround you : ie low bandwith, old browsers, slow CPUs etc.... do these frustrate you and make you feel that they compromise your creative work OR do you see them as tools, challenges that will help you streamline your work and message.


  9. #49
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    Originally posted by Simon Croft
    I think of it this way: the 3.5 minute pop song was largely a creation of the recording time on 45rpm vinyl disc. But Elvis Presley, the Beatles and the Rolling Stones etc worked round the limitation pretty well .

    TV isn't cinema. Flash isn't TV. The only time the limitations become obvious (IMHO)is when we all fall back on the most obvious things the medium can deliver.



    How do you feel by all the limitations that surround you : ie low bandwith, old browsers, slow CPUs etc.... do these frustrate you and make you feel that they compromise your creative work OR do you see them as tools, challenges that will help you streamline your work and message.

    it works both ways, tv isn't flash and there are many things you can do to create a more substantial user experience than afforded by the humble television.

    it is a challenge, limitations have always inspired people to create new directions, this is what marks the the best designers, they take a medium and with reference to culture and society expand upon what was possible before.


  10. #50
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    1st up, this thread is hitting up style! way to go or as A would say: [funny brit accent ]spot on![/funny brit accent ]

    lol


    anyways
    How do you feel by all the limitations that surround you : ie low bandwith, old browsers, slow CPUs etc.... do these frustrate you and make you feel that they compromise your creative work OR do you see them as tools, challenges that will help you streamline your work and message.
    I don't really think that any creative person can be limited. that is first thing in my eyes.

    As long as you are free of thinking and your brain works nothing can limit you, it is just that sometimes you are hindered to make or develop something right away maybe or you have to wait for the extra 256 RAM to be shipped in order to get your work done properly.

    And being from "ugh! that Lot" (marketing) i think the bandwidth is also nothing to limitate us it is rather an aspect of the "target group". who is the site for and why will it deliver in broadband and not narrowband etc...
    I mean whatever we create should have a purpose for someone who might want to visit. And that purpose must be justified by several things, among it the bandwidth, so I don't think it is limiting us either, maybe we all feel so right now but really you would not create a broadband site that you want housewifes on a slow 33 K modem to look at.
    hm maybe bad example but you get the idea of what i was thinking of.

    I really think that the development of broadband will give us more and more opportunities and chances to establish and prove ourselfves in the future, with braodband being spread more and more.

    iCEBERG


  11. #51
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    Actually, I find that it's not the technology that limits me: The confines of it are actually a challenge.

    What drives me insane are the limitations other PEOPLE put upon me as a designer.

    Whether it's the corporate world raping anything and everything unique and different that they can get their hands on, or just the usual client that wants an entire 25-page site with all the explosions, for $50.

    It gets very hard to design things that you feel go unappreciated. I often feel like I'm designing for spoiled 5 year-olds, who as soon as they get a new toy, want another one. A bigger, brighter, rounder, juicier berry.

    It devalues my work, and is blatantly disrespectful to those of us who do this in order to survive.
    As quoted in a recent Adbusters magazine- "I wanted to be an artist, but I became a designer instead."

    I feel that the challenge of being appreciated and valued will ALWAYS be bigger than the challenge of technology, because the more you master technology, the more you are expected to fork it over for $0.99, or put me in a box.

  12. #52
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    Originally posted by joyjam
    I feel that the challenge of being appreciated and valued will ALWAYS be bigger than the challenge of technology, because the more you master technology, the more you are expected to fork it over for $0.99, or put me in a box.
    Hehe - here's the dilemma. Technology is pretty predictable - it'll always keep moving forward. It's people that are unpredictable.

    It's why I have a personal site.

    But this really is and always has been one of the challenges of commercial design - and every person here should add psychology to their resume.

    Naturally there's a few basic rules we all know through experience - the client will never approve the first design (they want to feel like they're "getting their money's worth"), the client always wants more for less, etc.

    An interesting point I gleaned form that post was the concept of the client seeing design trends and wanting to incorporate those designs (cheaply) - isn't that bad trend perpetuated within the design community itself, through "hero worship" and countless 2Advanced ripoffs?

    What is the stop gap between inspiration and emulation?

  13. #53
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    Originally posted by CNO
    An interesting point I gleaned form that post was the concept of the client seeing design trends and wanting to incorporate those designs (cheaply) - isn't that bad trend perpetuated within the design community itself, through "hero worship" and countless 2Advanced ripoffs?

    part of the skillset of being a commercial designer is the ability to deal with clients.

    of course they're not going to understand what they want or how things work, but your job is to inform and educate them, hopefully without having to be too patronising...

    i also use this example from my own experience.. my client went to vegas for a holiday, when he came back he wanted to put the music from the slotmachines he was playing onto the site because, 'it made me feel good'... despite the fact that the site is in html and is a subscription media sales site. Can you imagine using that site several times a day with that music going???

    but the point is that when it comes to commercial work we have to make of it what we can, we have to try to push the client to use the correct technology and the best design for the job.

    Originally posted by CNO

    What is the stop gap between inspiration and emulation?
    with commercial work there is going to have to be a compromise when it comes to 'rip offs' if the client has a particular style or even site design in mind, but when you're doing work for personal reasons i see no reason to emulate...

    when you are designing for yourself the only reward is self-satisfaction, if you're true to yourself then you will know where the line you draw is, you will know when you've taken something beyond its origins and made it your own. Again it comes back to the ideas delineated in 'the fountainhead', some peopel will always get satisfaction from presenting someone else's work as their own. As far as i'm concerned it's their own problems they have to deal with.




  14. #54
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    Originally posted by aversion
    part of the skillset of being a commercial designer is the ability to deal with clients.
    Hence the "every person here should add psychology to their resume," line.

    And on that note, another inevitability of design is that the client will always be better at telling you what they don't want rather than what they do.

    The golden phrase "I dunno - you're the designer" can be an opportunity to slip some creativity into an otherwise bland design - however, seeing as how you are making a "work for hire", every designer should learn the art of compromise along with drawing and Illustration skills. That is not to say that one should compromise their principles or ideals, but one can not be stubborn in respect to them either.

    Of course, if you are not designing for a business but rather for purely aesthetic purposes, I would encourage one to flip all naysayers, critics, observers and appreciaters alike the proverbial finger. It adds to the mystique of being an "artist".

  15. #55
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    Originally posted by CNO
    [B

    It's why I have a personal site.

    [/B]
    its why we all have our personal sites out there whether we freelance or are employed fully by come corp

    Ive always seen my site as a place to experiment and do and try things i cant do with my projects at work -

    It probably helps maintain the balance !

    A


  16. #56
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    Originally posted by Aria

    Ive always seen my site as a place to experiment and do and try things i cant do with my projects at work -
    you've seen it but we haven't!!! When's it opening?


    not that i can talk, i haven't foudn time to finish my business site yet


  17. #57
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    Originally posted by aversion
    Originally posted by Aria

    Ive always seen my site as a place to experiment and do and try things i cant do with my projects at work -
    you've seen it but we haven't!!! When's it opening?


    not that i can talk, i haven't foudn time to finish my business site yet

    hey aversion

    i think ive already explained myself in another thread but hey ill have to do it again

    can i do via email ? i want this to be a thread about design and not chit chat - ill remove any posts that are not part of the discussion taking place here

    Cya
    A

  18. #58
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    As bandwidth is concern, you have to consider your target. Are they innovators or laggards??

  19. #59
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    Originally posted by guysmy
    As bandwidth is concern, you have to consider your target. Are they innovators or laggards??
    identifying your target is always the first step, any web site has to have a purpose and that purpose has to include your audience.. even for personal sites.


  20. #60
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    Originally posted by Aria
    I think the core of what we do is to communicate , in clear and simple ways, rather than getting carried away with the latest and trendiest techniques and tricks out there. Its so easy to get attached and passionate with what a certain app can produce that we get to a point where we think that the client wont be impressed without these.
    Has anyone been in a situation like this ?

    Id really like to hear some views here from other designers
    A
    The latest and greatest techinques are not only fun for me to implement, but also it seems the client would be appreciative of the fresh new look. I agree that getting stuck in the trap of thinking that the client won't like it w/o them is counterproductive, but isn't the most pride in the work where you have conquered another new design challenge and the client thinks it's innovative? It seems these two things would go hand-in-hand more often than not.

    I'm not a true designer like you folks, but i really enjoyed this thread. Thanks. I'd also love an e-mail with a link to your experiments Aria. I've read a lot of your posts and would like to see what you're all about.

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