cold fusion or asp?

[Ghostdance]

ASP sucks plain and simple. Its Bloated and Slow to start with. If you know VB (Visual Basic) ASP will be a snap. ColdFusion has 1 problem its price. Hosting can be expensive compared to ASP and PHP due to the fact the host has to buy CF. ASP is Free on all Windows(32) Platforms and PHP is free and has a port for just about any OS there is. I know all 3 but as a programer (Delphi/c++) I like ColdFusion because I can develop my own CFX tags and get it to do what I want/how I want. I would not even look to ASP without knowledge of VB. PHP or CF is the way to go and PHP is just as easy to learn as CF.
[Edited by Ghostdance on 03-10-2002 at 06:14 PM]

[AndrewMuller]

<b>Musicman</b>

ColdFusion can connect to a standard odbc connection on the server, the developer needs to set up the details once on the server or use existing odbc connections. Since it's server side it's also secure, not exposing any DB information to the connected client.

ColdFusion Enterprise can also connect to enterprise level database servers like Oracle, Sybase, Infomix & DB2 via custom connectors that offer greater performance.

A ColdFusion query is basically a single tag with close that wraps around a SQL statement, here's an example of a query to return three columns from a single table in the DB:

&lt;cfquery name="qGetEmployees" datasource="EmployeeDB"&gt;
SELECT Fname, Lname, EmpID
FROM Employees
&lt;/cfquery&gt;

The cfquery tag can have further attributes such as userid and password if required.

Macromedia has obviously been careful in selecting this example as it demonstrates how little code is required to make a mail server connection but the case is that there is usually much less code with CF as it is a tag based development environment.

Wait and see what CFMX will offer when it is released.


<b>Ghostdance</b>

Some do believe that ASP (and PHP) is free, but you have to go one step further and look at actual costs to make a true ROI comparison.

If you are developing and hosting your own solution you either have ASP bundled on your Windows server for nothing or you could purchase a copy of ColdFusion.

ColdFusion Professional currently retails for around $4300 with 2 years upgrades here in Australia where I'm based. It's not unusual for a decent developer/contractor to cost $1000 a day...

It's undeniable that an ASP project will require more code and development time compared to CF, in fact if you're able to make a man hour comparison, apply wages to that the saving on ColdFusion is considerable.

You yourself said that ASP is "Bloated and Slow", no one ever does the maths on this issue.

Like they say there's no such thing as a free lunch.

[apwalton]

I don't know why anyone would pay the bloated server costs for ASP or Cold Fusion when PHP has all the same (or more) capabilities than either, and its the fastest scripting laguage out there.

PHP = Fast, inexpensive, almost unlimited source code and tutorials on the net. Why wouldn't you want to use PHP?

[MikeChambers]

Originally posted by apwalton
I don't know why anyone would pay the bloated server costs for ASP or Cold Fusion when PHP has all the same (or more) capabilities than either, and its the fastest scripting laguage out there.

PHP = Fast, inexpensive, almost unlimited source code and tutorials on the net. Why wouldn't you want to use PHP?

i am curious, based on the reasons that you mentioned, why not use Java / Jsp / Servlets?

also, what if Php didn't have all of the features of ColdFusion (or ASP), would you switch then?

just curious...

mike chambers

mesh@macromedia.com

[AndrewMuller]

<b>apwalton</b>

You say "PHP has all the same (or more) capabilities"...

Can we do a quick cross check comparing PHP against ColdFusion.

ColdFusion 5 can:

Communicate with pop & smtp servers with a single tag.
Read & Write to the servers file system with a single tag.
Manage directories on the servers file system with a single tag.
Make a http call from the server with a single tag.

It runs database queries with a single tag wrapped around the necessary sql. To loop through those query results you need only one tag with it's close. There's far less code.

Because it's a tag based language it's a rapid application development it is a fast development environment, faster than any scripting (I notice that you're specific about that) language.

What is it that PHP can do that ColdFusion cannot?

Can it do cached persistant queries that you can then run queries against?

There's a reason that people do develop with PHP, and there's also a good reason why people pay to use ColdFusion - I've said here already that if you do the maths and look at how rapid ColdFusion is to develop with you'll see that compared to other enterprise solutions it offers a very high ROI.

I've not chosen to participate here to run PHP down, do a complete comparison, download a copy of ColdFusion or get hold of a demo CD and try it for yourself.

There's still no such thing as a free lunch.

Andrew

[MikeDowney]

...The CF example just specifies a database name, while php code also names the database server and the database password. Unless CF only works with databases that are not protected somehow, and does not support dedicated database servers, these information datails have to be given somewhere - I'd count them as lines of code as well.

Could anybody contribute short examples that are more specific to flash: sending multiple results from a database query as flash variables, proxy scripting to a third-party server, handling xml content or even creating binary data (swf movies)

Well, maybe I can shed some light on these observations, all-be-it from a Macromedia perspective. :-)

I haven't looked at the code examples that you are referring to, but I think I know what it will look like. First, CF doesn't require (though it allows) connection strings that point directly to the database and it's driver. In the code example, the cfquery tag probably shows an attribute of "datasource" which is referring to a system DSN. Database connections are configured and managed in the ColdFusion server administrator application. Centralizing database connections on the server instead of specifying them at the application level allows for quick and easy global changes, if need be.

As for code examples specific to Flash, I'd recommend visiting the Designer/Developer center at http://www.macromedia.com. You will find several technotes and tutorials dedicated to the subject.

To further address the other questions listed in this thread, I'd agree with Mike Chambers in saying that there are and will be definite advantages to using ColdFusion for data-driven Flash. There are many, many more great things to come...

Regards,
MD

[Ghostdance]

AndrewMuller :
I agree with AndrewMuller on everything but the math. If I was going to do In-House design/server. My last choice would be IIS (Windows 2000/NT server's) The server it self is costly not to mention Microsoft’s problems with security. Then we tack on CF Server to the cost. Then each server requires a license if this is totally legit which is going to double (on up) the cost on the Windows server. Then we need a database most companies will opt for MS product as well. Not to mention hardware cost MS products are not friendly with hardware such as Ram.

If it was me and I was going In-House and wanted to get the most cost effective if not the best solution.

FreeBSD - as my server platform - http://www.freebsd.org
Apache - For my web server - http://www.apache.org
PHP - For my scripting language - http://www.php.net
MySQL - For my database - http://www.mysql.com

I also know CF server will run on Linux as well as Soliars. Not a great choice to run CF on Linux.

I just added a great database. A very easy to use language that is great (Don’t get me wrong I don’t have my own server (lines are costly as well) so my pages, well two of them anyway are powered by CF). FreeBSD is rock solid platform. I think the statistics speak for Apache. I have no license fees as well.

apwalton :
As far as the PHP comment. PHP is very nice but in no way does it compare to ColdFusion. ColdFusion can hold its own with PHP any day of the week. There are things CF can do that PHP can't.

I still say ASP sucks though.
[Edited by Ghostdance on 03-12-2002 at 03:33 AM]

[smudge]

Ghostdance, I think your comments are valid - especially with the downturn in the IT/Tech industry. Perhaps IT managers will now look more closely at the costings of free vs. licensed products more now.
However, that said, I also come from a corporate IT background and whilst they often typically have both Unix/Linux and MS os's / applications / web servers etc.... they use MS products because of a) the perception of high-qulaity on demand support and b) the fact they can get developers quickly for new IT projects.

As an aside :
I'm hoping that MM can really push Flash into an "enterprise-level" application arena by using Coldfusion MX as the stepping stone. That to me means, total support for all the enterprise-level databases (Oracle, Sybase, SQL Server etc...), CFMX running on the major web servers and close integration with Java (swapping classes/objects etc..)
as many of the companies I have worked for all use Java to build industrial strenght apps.
If MM can do this with Coldfsuion and Flash maybe the IT managers (with the budgets) of the big banks/airlines/insurance firms will start looking at Flash as the most cost-effective solution of developing robust applications rapidly with the most ubiquity.

my 2p.

[paulgrand]

Originally posted by Ed_Mack
Yeah, it is, though you are the only person who has complained ??

Its polling system, thats how it works. Anyway, why's it hurting you? (Not meaning to be cheaky or anything).

I suppose if it's really annoying, you could turn off flash footers.

Just for you!! I don't think so, if everybody did this there would little hope of getting quick pages, please think of others and don't be annoying.

[pathfndr]

Just thought I would give my 2 cents worth.

First:
Although ASP is very usefull, if you are looking for a very good, flash - scripting - database solution I think your best bet would be to use PHP for your applications.

second:
Flash is very compatible with PHP, and if you can script in flash action script, you can script in php.

third:
PHP is a C based server side language like perl, but unlike perl which was not even created for the web, PHP is fast, lean and svelt.

fourth:
The PHP language and the MySQL database are free, and offered under the GPL (General Public License).
MySQL is considered one of the best databese platforms around, and at this point has about a 46-54 percent market saturation. That means, out of all the big boys like, ORACLE,MICROCARP,SYBASE, the free Mysql database is a leader.

If you are starting to develop with flash and backend scripting, I would suggest going to http://www.sourceforge.net
and picking up the newest version of PHPtriad. PHPtriad will install an apache webserver,php4, and MySQL on your computer.
This installer worked great for me. Or you can install all that yourself, which is a pain in the butt.

I installed the above on my windows 98 win32 system, I have only 64MB ram, a 266 and a 5 gig HD.

Just wanted to add this:
I cant say much about ColdFusion other than I have never used used it, I would imagine, like all other macromedia products that I have used, it is useful, and does what it was intended to do, supply integration of backend dynamic content to flash/shockwave enabled sites.

One thing to consider when deciding which products and apps to use is, product support and bug fixes.
When you use open source products, you are both supporting the advancement of technology and getting great 24/7 tech support.
Consider the fact that there are 100's to 1000's of people working on PHP at one time, and when a bug shows itself, its fixed fast, rapid development is also a bonus.

One more plus to PHP over ASP. ASP relies on calling COMS for every call, so in essence slowing the language down, PHP does not..
Well good luck....


[Edited by pathfndr on 03-12-2002 at 10:43 PM]

[AndrewMuller]

pathfndr

Could you please point us to a location where your "MySQL is considered one of the best databese platforms around, and at this point has about a 46-54 percent market saturation" claim can be verified as it appears to be a little exaggerated...

I believe that you'll find most serious web sites do not use MySql because it's got some problems.

1. No transactional processing (you do know why that's important don't you).

2. Reliabliity issues.

3. Table consistency issues.

You recognise installation issues with PHP and MySql in recommending a thrid party installer, "Or you can install all that yourself, which is a pain in the butt.", anything else you might like to add to that?

These are the problems that you get when you do attempt to use GPL products, that's why people do pay to use mature solutions like ColdFusion.

If you want to know how to develop Flash solutions with backend scripting you might like to sign up to try out the next generation ColfFusion beta, Neo. Unlike PHP it's J2EE, you can join the beta program here: http://www.macromedia.com/go/neobetaapply

There's still no such thing as a free lunch.

Andrew

<b>Amended</b>

In reply to your amendment...

Allaire introduced ColdFusion before ASP as a means to publish database queries dynamically, there was no Flash or FutureSplash around at the time... Please check all your facts (major problem) first. It goes beyond being able to "supply integration of backend dynamic content to flash/shockwave enabled sites".

It too has a very large developer community, PHP is not unique in having 1000's of developers helping each other out in a developers community.

You really owe it to your self to broaden your horizons
[Edited by AndrewMuller on 03-12-2002 at 10:56 PM]

[Ghostdance]

Originally posted by pathfndr

One thing to consider when deciding which products and apps to use is, product support and bug fixes.
When you use open source products, you are both supporting the advancement of technology and getting great 24/7 tech support.

The MySQL statistic is False MS and ORACLE ect has these markets. You might mean Apache .

The reason I left your quote is yes in the open source community bug fixes are taken care of right away. Supporting the advancement of technology that’s a personal thing I guess. Great 24/7 tech support not in this lifetime (MySQL charges for Tech Support). That’s one of the advantages to a commercial product you will get Tech Support. All the projects I personally work on at sourceforge you might get a reply if the question is a good one most likely it will be ignored though. Open Source tech support is a little something like this Read the DOCS and the FAQ.


[Edited by Ghostdance on 03-12-2002 at 11:20 PM]

[pathfndr]

Andrew:
Thanks for the lesson.
I understand what you are saying. I thought I did have my facts straight, other than the ColdFusion flash relationions.
I am looking now for the pages that I saw the database comparisons on, but Ghostdance may be correct in saying that I may have been thinking about apache, Im still looking.:o)
And yes there are drawbacks to using MySQL. I would never consider using the current version of MySQL for a million + line corporate database. And yes, transactions are very important, along with foreign keys and stored procedures.

Thanks for the corrections.

Ghostdance:
As I stated above, Im still looking for the information that I quoted on databases, Ill post it if I find it.

When I say 24/7 tech support, I guess I should have expanded on what I meant. Your correct about tech support. Trying to get tech help from a "developer" is like trying to suck watermellons through a straw.
But what I was trying to say more than anything else is that, in the open source community, there is an abundance of help available at all hours, either through chat, messageboard, websites or the developer group, and yes, like Andrew said, "PHP is not unique in having 1000's of developers helping each other out", but like flashkit, open source is more like a family (at least to me).

Sorry if I offened, I was just trying to state what I thought was an educated post of information.
Guess I had better dot all my i's and cross my t's next time..
Ray

[Ghostdance]

Its all cool.

[shutyagob]

I've always used CF for server side stuff but now I'm looking into JSP, ASP and PHP as our ASP guy (who was formally a CF developer) prefers ASP.

If you have a very large DB with millions of rows, ASP has better tools for handling this, also in ASP you only need to connect to the database once where as in CF every time you do a CFQUERY it makes a db connection - big on server over head if this is happening again and again and CF is a server which runs on IIS (if you're on NT) again adding to the server overhead.

These are all performance issues that our ASP developer has highlighted, however he pointed out that if you are using a small db (say access) then performance is not such an issue.

On the plus side CF is very easy to learn and Macromedia now own it, and as a result integration with flash would/will be much easier.

Just my thoughts...

Dave

[aashu.com]

what i seen bad thing about ASP is ...

while connecting from dial-up ... it shows [TIMEOUT] error so many times ...

and i never seen this type of error in PHP's.

2nd thing is it's free. it's pre hosted with most servers. and ASP is not works with every *nix servers. you need chilisoft plugin to run ASP on *nix servers. so again money!!!! for MS NT server.

what do you think guyz!

[AndrewMuller]

Originally posted by shutyagob
If you have a very large DB with millions of rows, ASP has better tools for handling this, also in ASP you only need to connect to the database once where as in CF every time you do a CFQUERY it makes a db connection - big on server over head if this is happening again and again and CF is a server which runs on IIS (if you're on NT) again adding to the server overhead.

Dave

Persistance of database connections is just another option that you can configure through the ColdFusion Administrator, your guy could have found an answer for that in about a minute if he'd gone searching on the ColdFusion support forums...

The fact is that ColdFusion actually has better tools to handle large database tables & large queries, even moreso when the query is dynamic.

With ColdFusion you can go well beyond the small offering that of database/query options that ASP gives you, doing things like caching that query for a specific period of time, running queries of queries (including against cached).

ColdFusion is low on server overhead actually.

I'd do a little bit of checking into other performance issue he thinks that he might have, I'm sure that that there are answers for those as well.

What I'm interested to know from the two of you is this.

Since you both have developed in ColdFusion and ASP I'd like to know, objectively, what sort of time is required in developer days you'd consider you'd need to build a medium to large site using ColdFusion compared to ASP?

<b>Ghostdance</b>: it sounds as though you've developed in ColdFusion and another language PHP(?), are you able to offer a comparison in developer days between CF & PHP/ASP on a medium site?

Andrew

[smudge]

.. maybe of interest / may not .... I went to a Flash MX seminar in London yesterday run by Macromedia. The MX product is pretty amazing, but of great interest was the announcement of two new products that will integrate with Flash MX.

Flash Application Server Gateway (FASG) and Communication Gateway (CG) .... these are my abbreviations not MM's. CG concerns streaming video - but FASG is a set of tools that will allow the Flash MX player to speak to Web application servers, such as .NET, J2EE and Coldfusion MX. How Flash MX will talk to these servers for developing applications seems to be through a new protocol called AMF (Action Message Format)- think it works over HTTP. THere's a few acronyms for you !!!

I know ASP (not to a guru extent) but am seriously considering learning Coldfusion MX. This is made more appealing by the fact it seems straightforward to learn (90 tags or so ?) - I won't give up on the ASP (always useful to have a backup), but Coldfusion MX is going to sit tightly with Flash MX. If it's going to be easier, faster and more efficient to build enterprise-level web applications with an interactive/compelling Flash front using ColdfusionMX then it seems to be definately worth learning. I suppose the continued uptake of Coldfusion MX may also depend on the licensing costs though.

I asked a question will Flash MX be able to call and execute java classes. Answer was "wait and see" - which I took as a yes.

[greg777]

Am I missing something here?

I used to be in the Web development field until about two years ago when I gave it up to concentrate only on Web design. I used ASP often from creating small VB Script pieces to building custom discussion boards etc for my clients Web sites. I even dabbled in Cold Fusion when it first came out as well. I still build basic ASP sites but I usually pass anything more on to specialists.

I found ASP a relatively easy scripting language to pick up and are plenty of resources on the web available. I work with e-commerce companies who are my long-term clients and they specialize in building custom e-commerce systems for small to large corporations. One client in particular used CF since it's beginning but I was talking to them 2 weeks ago and they said that they only use ASP these days. They are interested in .Net as well although I don't know much about that but from what I have herd it sounds like it is a new version of ASP? Maybe this is the better technology, does anyone know much about that?

PHP has a lot of followers but I haven't always had the best experiences on web sites using it, but then again ASP can just as easily be executed wrong. The only thing I would say about PHP that I would raise concerns with is that I have been told that it isn't suited to large sites?

The other thing is that if you were building for an SQL database then ASP would have to be the better technology to use. SQL was breaking transaction speed records last time I used it 2 years ago so it must be pretty good these days.

Anyway this is not my area now so I'm know expert but I'm certain ASP has got to be worth considering especially if you are wanting to learn code that many major companies & Web sites use.

_greg

[Hopsing82]

I think if you were smart, you would go with PHP. ColdFusion costs LOTS of money on most servers and some will not support it. PHP is free and most servers support it.

Good luck!