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Thread: for Razor

  1. #1
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    Per your email
    I'm not saying that flashdavo was right and you were wrong, I honestly couldn't care less, what I'm saying is that your later posts were deliberately attacking other members and I feel an apology (through mail or on the board) may be in order
    I could care less who is percieved as right or wrong.
    And FlashDavo or whoever is the least of my concerns.

    What does get my goat is all these people writing dime a dozen FLA's who are all so secretive about it and think it's cool to play the Mr. Proprietary License game.

    Fact is, we all owe the internets very existence to people who open source and make their code otherwise publicly available. Apache, BSD, FreeBSD, Linux... oh and now RealMedias Helixx server... all these technologies and more were written and made available for public review and revision at no cost to the user.

    Now, we have all these people running around acting like they have some uber-secret FLA. I posted my FLA because I always intended to post my FLA, that was the point of windowmatic lite. To be free for use by anyone, ever since I first wrote it last October. Hell, others have already had it free for awhile now, people sometimes feel obliged to send me a few hundred in the mail. I say cool and thanks, but never ask nor expect compenstation for it. So think nothing of it. Though I will apologize for posting 1.6b which is a between version with some new features and I think a couple bugs... oh well, as the GPL states, "as is without warranty".

    I have far better code that is under the GPL as well, entire service architectures even, tens of thousands of lines of code and months of labor... makes the day or two here and there on windowmatic look like nothing in comparison. And I give that code base away for free as well.

    The point of all of this is to wake atleast one person up to the fact that they would not be doing what they are doing if in the 80's, early 90's and through to today people were not sharing their efforts. We would not have the Apache webserver, MySQL and postgres would not exist, Linux, BSD? Ha! HTML? XML? JPEGS? OpenGL? Hyperlinks? Hell... the GUI itself was open sourced by Xerox we all owe them for our desktops!
    Don't forget, OS X is a BSD/Mach hybrid microkernal, based on FREE SOFTWARE, Steve Jobs even tried to get Linus Torvolds (Mr. Linux himself) to spearhead the OS X development, but Linus didn't like the tech being used (BSD/Mach) so turned the offer down.

    So ya, I think it's a little disturbing to see people trying to get licensing fees for some measly flash file and what have you. That is your choice though and I have never and will never say to give up a copyright or hand over ownership, only to consider allowing rights to use and modifications of work the client has already payed for.
    You can do that AND keep both the copyright and ownership of your original work firmly intact.

    And to be honest, I could care less if you want to be Mr. Proprietary, but ya... I get my nose a little bent out of joint when people try to tell me the DMCA and UCITA are ethical, when in fact they are indeed taking away our rights and handing them to the corps.

    Don't believe me?
    Maybe you should do some reading, there is much material out there on the subject, and atleast one Congressman is already deeming a revision of the DMCA necessary to address some of the fears they have about the effect on all citizens, since they've seen how lopsided and damaging it is.

    I don't have time to get all the links, but
    http://www.eff.org is a good start.
    A nice piece fo reading is here:
    http://www.eff.org/IP/DMCA/20020503_...sequences.html
    Maybe after reading up you'll wake up and see that there is some bad news a brewing for all US citizens, whether they code or not.

    And ya, I take that a little personally, but I've also seen that many around here only care about this when it directly effects them... I remember a thread a couple weeks ago where everyone got there panties in a knot over Paladian, and DVD broadcast flags. Seems a little 2-faced to me,
    to be proprietary with an .fla but angry over someone shutting your DVD off. And that is why I split as website is not the place for me.

    But since razor sent email, thus my reply.
    I am sorry if anyone thought I was being to critical of them. As the only thing I am critical of is the loss of liberties I have been seeing the last couple years, mostly due to the governments ignorance of technologies role and the translation of our rights into the digital genre.
    But, also because they are just trying to make the corps happy, but the actual people they serve aren't getting the representation they deserve and need. And in the end, I'm sure it will all work itself out, but in the meanwhile, it's frustrating seeing so much hang upon the precipace.


    hasta


  2. #2
    curmudgeon swampy's Avatar
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    It's a great shame that you have decided to leave as you make some valid points in your threads. the links you've provided in this thread have made particularly interesting reading.

    I for one would like you to stay and continue to argue your corner rationally.

  3. #3
    Moderator RazoRmedia's Avatar
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    l0ungeb0y,

    I too have seen some of your posts and you seem very clued up, you have helped others out. The problem here was not with the topic, it was the way that you put across your opinions, calling people fascists etc. You have very valid points and although different from my own, I would never see you silenced because of this.

    All we are asking is that you have your opinions, tell others, debate with others over this but please refrain from making it an attack.

    Some share, your opinion, others don't, but this does not mean that they are wrong or you are wrong, it is merely an opinion, a thought based on previous experiences and knowledge.

    I agree with Swampy, I wouldn't want to see a member leave over a point like this, if we can keep our posts friendly and respectful, the debates can go on.

    thanks for the reply.

  4. #4
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    Well, I never called anyone a fascist, I did ask Johnie if he was one though. That's only because I couldn't call anyone a hypocrite anymore...

    Though I did have good reasons for my use of that word for FlashDavo http://board.flashkit.com/board/show...hreadid=340611 bottom of the page
    Note... I just closed that thread, to prevent certain evidence from being "lost"

    Originally posted by TheOriginalFlashDavo
    Sounds like you guys in the States are having similar issues as we are in Australia, with politicians being overly influenced by campaigning mega-corps, mainly due to the technology involved being so new that most of the average "Joe Public" has no idea of anything they should complain about, hence there's no real pressure from anyone other than the corporations.

    The difference being of course that so much of what is decided in the States with regards to the major corporations and their ability to impose restrictions or processes onto the user is then replicated throughout most of the western world.

    And another point mentioned, it's all well and good to talk about not using their products, but it can be very expensive to switch, and you also have issues with your clients and audience using certain products that you must then use...etc.

    I'm hoping certain regulations to protect the consumer will be implemented rather than have to change our entire work practices. We'll see....

    I think we must all keep awake to these goings ons..
    Funny how he sung a different tune in the thread in this forum when it came to his licensing.

    Do understand... confrontational I may be, irrational I am not. The words I direct at others always have a reason behind them.

  5. #5
    Gross Pecululatarian Ed Mack's Avatar
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    Flash files are part of your buisiness... and it's the same in many other industries (may not be the best parallel), a hairdresser will never give out his/her colour recipies, or the names of the products he/she uses. A cheif never gives out his/her curry recipies, or any others for that fact. Many laundrettes wont tell you what washing powder they use. It is quite common to keep things to yourself, as it's you that is making money from it. If you wern't, then giving out the secrets would seem a lot more in place. The idea of open source doesn't seem to translate to buisness quite so well, as if others work on it, you wont get anything out of it, and the reason you made that file was for money. Maybe were you live, it's easier to make money out of Flash work, but it isn't the same everywhere.

  6. #6
    Moderator CNO's Avatar
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    The worst thing to happen to open source is people who get self-righteous about opening their source.

    I appreciate you taking a stand for open source - I make it a point to release everything I'm working on open source for the betterment of the community as a whole. But the point the mods are trying to make is that any debate has two sides - it's fine to strongly defend your ideals, but when you become so entrenched in them that you become blind to another way of seeing things, then we moderators have to moderate.

    Reasons or not, some of these arguments might be better suited for off the boards, especially if you have an issue with a certain member in particular. Keep the conversations civil here - I know I'd like to hear more from both sides about the open source vs. selling source debate.

  7. #7
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    As per usual, when one tries to defend their abusiveness they like to take things out of context to prove their point.

    Now, how do my comments regarding implementation of something by Microsoft/Intel that will allow them to communicate with a person's personal computer/appliance via their software applications, and my comments about ownership rights to my own source files, come to be compared as hypocritical??

    Again, your irrationality, personal attacks and lack of respect for anyone else having an opposing professional opinion do nothing in promoting you as any kind of professional member of this industry.

    There once was a time when this board was a place where you really could have a professional debate about important issues within the industry. Unfortunately that's becomming less and less common as time goes on, as this subject has unfortunately shown, and the value of Flashkit as an industry resource lessens as a result.

    Unfortunate.

    Cheers
    Dave

    ----

    Communications Manager
    E-cademy Australia Pty Ltd

    Owner/Manager
    Envisionous Design





  8. #8
    Moderator CNO's Avatar
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    Originally posted by TheOriginalFlashDavo
    There once was a time when this board was a place where you really could have a professional debate about important issues within the industry. Unfortunately that's becomming less and less common as time goes on, as this subject has unfortunately shown, and the value of Flashkit as an industry resource lessens as a result.
    No offense meant here, Dave, but to blame the community for the actions of a single member is just as bad as taking things out of context to prove your point.

    I've just got a thing about people bashing Flashkit because it's the hip thing to do. Don't mind me.

  9. #9
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    With all due respect to those that work their butt off here, and those that do make valuable contributions, I'm not making a comment because it's "hip", just making it because I've observed it a number of times, and quite a bit more than a few other industry boards I contribute to. Admittedly those other boards consist of an overall more "professional" (as in working, not kids or students) group of people, but since most of the flames that I take note of here come from supposed professionals... well, you get my point.

    And the fact is, if only ONE professional member of this board gets flamed for his valid professional opinion on something by another supposed professional, then that immediately devalues the resource.

    The "boardroom" is a little different from the coffee lounge, this is supposed to be a valuable forum for fellow professionals as well as young aspiring designers/developers, and when they see the kind of crap that comes from some so-called professionals, well, it certainly gives them a great view of what being a professional in this industry is all about, doesn't it?

    The thing is that I actually give a damn about my industry - the ethics, the morals, and doing the right thing by your colleagues and your clients - and regard a forum such as this as representative of our industry, so if it does not also follow some kind of ethical and moral guidelines somewhat... well, like I said, the value diminishes.

    Personally, I don't really give a crap - I'm not that delicate - but I just find it very unfortunate that someone can't contribute towards a balanced debate here without some kind of mutual respect. I realise some people find flaming on messageboards some kind of sport, but if that's the case then they really need to get a life somewhat.

    And before anyone justifies some of the comments made previously, this is SO not about either side of the argument, or the value of anyone's "good" points. Unfortunately those important issues have been lost in all the flaming crap (pun intended).

    Cheers
    Dave





  10. #10
    Moderator CNO's Avatar
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    Agreed, but unfortunately, online or off as a topic gets heated, people will make inappropriate comments. That's why debates have moderators. The best thing to do in a case like this is to vigorously prove your point strongly so that people will be able to form an informed opinion. But those who are set on disagreeing with you will disagree - water under the bridge. If they are not invalidating your point, then why argue? Alert the mods and we'll take care of it (and I think the BR mods did).

    But don't blame the community for a few angry members. To accuse Flashkit of going downhill does nothing to improve it - if you really feel that is the case (and maybe I'm just an optimist), the progressive thing to do would be to make an effort to turn it around, by posting more debates like this.

  11. #11
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    Well...

    Don't want to flame, and certainly no offense ment, but don't ALL of you guys find it not 'professional' to discuss about this sort of things?
    Merely opinions. You agree, fine. You disagree, fine. Chill out! :-)

  12. #12
    Moderator CNO's Avatar
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    Originally posted by raketman
    Merely opinions. You agree, fine. You disagree, fine. Chill out! :-)
    I can't argue with that.

  13. #13
    An Inconvenient Serving Size hurricaneone's Avatar
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    If everyone was to just chill out, then there wouldn't be much of a discussion left. Getting flamed at (I think) is risk that you have to take to post your opinion (not help, or advice, but opinion) on this board - no, I'm not saying it's right, but due to the popularity of Flashkit, there's gonna be more chance that people will not respect the Boardroom and what it stands for.

    A think rather than chill out, it be better if people proposing to post potentially inflammatory remarks take a couple of seconds and think about whether a) is the content warranted and b) does this belong in an open forum.

    Cheers

  14. #14
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    Originally posted by hurricaneone
    If everyone was to just chill out, then there wouldn't be much of a discussion left. Getting flamed at (I think) is risk that you have to take to post your opinion (not help, or advice, but opinion) on this board - no, I'm not saying it's right, but due to the popularity of Flashkit, there's gonna be more chance that people will not respect the Boardroom and what it stands for.

    A think rather than chill out, it be better if people proposing to post potentially inflammatory remarks take a couple of seconds and think about whether a) is the content warranted and b) does this belong in an open forum.
    Oh, it's a risk I take anytime I post an opposing opinion, of course I recognise that, but does that mean that if I get unjustly flamed by someone that believes the only correct opinion is their's, and that anyone with an opposing opion is a fascist or a hypocrit (as has happened), that I should not try to seek redress along the lines of some kind of appology for those remarks?

    Whether that happens I realise will be more of an indication of the character of the person, but it does not mean I should not raise the issue or make the point.

    I LOVE it when someone has an opposing opinion. Damn, that's how you learn, both about your side of the argument as you research more to back up your point, or an opposing viewpoint that you had not considered or did not know enough about. That's healthy and well balanced. Abuse is not.

    It would be like walking into a conference or meeting and having some complete stranger come up to you and start abusing you because you like believe in a traditional design style rather than a contemporary one (or vice versa). Would you just stand there or would you ask him where the Hell he got off abusing you that way?

    And I 100% agree with raketman's post - these are just opinions - different and in most cases equally valid opinions - which is why I would make a very strong point when ANY member is flamed for their's. I will argue an opposing viewpoint all night and day if it interests me. At no time will I lay personal abuse on someone because they believe differently to me.

    And hurricaneone, I certainly get you point, but if nothing is done then does that not take away from the issues being discussed? Look at the post this particular case originated from - it evolved into a discussion about open source v non-open source - a very interesting topic, the various view points of which can be very educational for both professionals and students alike. Unfortunately it was never allowed to develop due to some immature member getting abusive with others who had opposing viewpoints.

    And CNO, I do make an effort to turn Flashkit around, by trying to make valid opinions about important issues, and helping those newbies (or others) who ask questions, and being optimistic that people like that are in the minority. Unfortunately it may be I do that less and less if everythime it opposes some delicate person's own opinion they decide to insult me. Yes, I am thick-skinned, but I don't like to waste my time.

    Sorry if this is long, but I just wanted to make my point, and the reason I spend this time is because Flashkit HAs proved a valuable resource for me in the past. I would just like it to remain so for the future too.

    Cheers guys.
    Dave




  15. #15
    An Inconvenient Serving Size hurricaneone's Avatar
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    Yeah, Davo, when you get down to it, you didn't deserve the comments you received. Even if the detractor was vehemently against your opinion, it doesn't cost anything to keep a civil attitude. Just like dear Ma used to say, abusive language is for those with a weak vocabulary. (actually, I'm pretty sure she's still saying it).

  16. #16
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    Don't worry mate, I've moved on. Was just curious to see if the guy had the courage to realise he was in the wrong and applogise. That takes a bigger man than one who just sprouts their opinion.

    Cheers
    Dave


  17. #17
    Moderator RazoRmedia's Avatar
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    Originally posted by hurricaneone
    Just like dear Ma used to say, abusive language is for those with a weak vocabulary.
    Oh shut up you Idiot !!!!


  18. #18
    An Inconvenient Serving Size hurricaneone's Avatar
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    You know you love it - dare to tell me you don't.


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