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Thread: Win2000 SP 3...anyone taken the plunge yet??

  1. #21
    johnhadtobanme-myfault . You won this time john, next time ill hit the button. GMF
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    Originally posted by clifgriffin
    Originally posted by Karikaru
    can remote admin access get around a very protective firewall? i wish i could limit their access and stuff i dont want M$ prowling around my pc... those greedy bastards...
    It's in their best interests to satisfy their customers...

    rofl, you should do more research, from your posts you sound very gullable. btw its in microsofts best interests to take all the money you have they couldnt really give a **** on what your interests are, remember winXP? a ploy to make money, its all a gimmick.

    i am going to wait a while till i download sp3, if everything is ok and everyone comes to the conclusion its stable, i will install it.

  2. #22
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    Originally posted by clifgriffin
    Originally posted by Karikaru
    can remote admin access get around a very protective firewall? i wish i could limit their access and stuff i dont want M$ prowling around my pc... those greedy bastards...
    No it can't. You can turn off the feature if you wish.

    I don't know why you get so paranoid Johnie. It's in their best interests to satisfy their customers...

    If they've left a "backdoor", we'll find out real soon...privacy groups are constatly reveiwing these things for breaches.

    Everyone had a cow over Windows XP Activation...they said Microsoft would abuse it...privacy group's anazlyed...and gave it a clean bill of health.

    Only in a free market. The PC industry is not a free market.

    Polutioum is not in the consumers best interest so why is MS pushing it???

    Active X, Scripting enabled in Outlook, Disabling the <Embed> Tag, Having all broken and non-existant URLS directed to MSN Search, MSIE being intergrated, WMP being intergrated, Not distributing Java with XP, Not Distributing the current SUN Version of Java vis its update service instead of its very dated own version, Having WMP keep a list of every DVD you play, Liscensing 6.0, all of this is not in the consumers/customers best interest...

    Privacy groups are still all over Activation and Passport- perhaps a few in the pockets of MS signed off on it but not all of them. None of them like Palladium (The real name of this technology).

    MS doesn't care about the customer they are a monopoly and know that the precieved and real costs of dropping their products is more than paying for them.

    Again this is not a feature. This is legalease in a Liscense agreement giving MS permision to install anything it wants at will on your machine. This is not a Feature you can turn on or off but rather something in the liscensing. The Privacy groups are all over it- why do you think I know about it.

  3. #23
    I Mastered Dead Technology TallGuyLittleCar's Avatar
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    Originally posted by johnie

    Only in a free market. The PC industry is not a free market.

    ????
    lots of makers. a few os's, some even free!, 3 different (main) cpu chip makers? something you know I don't?


    MS doesn't care about the customer they are a monopoly and know that the precieved and real costs of dropping their products is more than paying for them.
    MS does care about the customer, Every succesfull corporation cares about customer. Thats all they care about. Now, their cares may not be benign. but they do care.

  4. #24
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    Originally posted by TallGuyLittleCar
    Originally posted by johnie

    Only in a free market. The PC industry is not a free market.

    ????
    lots of makers. a few os's, some even free!, 3 different chip makers? something you know I don't?


    MS doesn't care about the customer they are a monopoly and know that the precieved and real costs of dropping their products is more than paying for them.
    MS does care about the customer, Every succesfull corporation cares about customer. Thats all they care about. Now, their cares may not be benign. but they do care.
    95% of all PCs running MS Windows and over 90% of All computer Users use MS Office. That's not a free market. If you go and try to get funding, like Indreama did, to produce a product that directly competes with a MS product investors will laugh you out of the room- Why there is no Indreama even though the polls and research showed that there was as much if not more interest in that than in XBox.

    Lets not even mention that they have already been found to be a monopoly and that they were guilty of ilegally maintaining their monopoly by the courts.

    3 Chip Makers- Hmm that doesn't sound like very much competition to me. Why are there only 3 chipmakers for such a large market???? Sounds like an Oligopoly to me.

    -MS might care about there customers but not enough to change 97% of thier behaviors as they believe that everyone feels as if they are locked in at the desktop level to windows. They know this.


  5. #25
    I Mastered Dead Technology TallGuyLittleCar's Avatar
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    Originally posted by johnie


    95% of all PCs running MS Windows and over 90% of All computer Users use MS Office. That's not a free market. If you go and try to get funding, like Indreama did, to produce a product that directly competes with a MS product investors will laugh you out of the room-

    So an investors freedom to decide who they invest in is not a freemarket? When I think of free market I think of something void of government controls. Which as far as i know (for the most part) ms is not bank rolled by the fed gov.
    3 Chip Makers- Hmm that doesn't sound like very much competition to me. Why are there only 3 chipmakers for such a large market???? Sounds like an Oligopoly to me.
    Do you have a refridgerator? there are only 2 refridgerator manufactures, everything is a rebadge of one of those two. There are only 2 or 3 tire makers in the worldl(some smaller ones),everything else is a rebadge. And considering Larger coporations (usually) are more efficient in production I see this as something that will continue. However if you want a very good product you are best searching out a small company.
    -MS might care about there customers but not enough to change 97% of thier behaviors as they believe that everyone feels as if they are locked in at the desktop level to windows. They know this.
    yeah they do know this, but anyone can read and learn about their options. No one is forced to buy a MS O/S.
    I don't think a company should be punished for legally exploiting stupidity.

  6. #26

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    Originally posted by TallGuyLittleCar
    yeah they do know this, but anyone can read and learn about their options. No one is forced to buy a MS O/S.
    I don't think a company should be punished for legally exploiting stupidity.
    hahahahhahahahahahaha

    I agree with what TGLC said.

    And of course what I always say when it comes to MS - don't like it - don't use it

  7. #27
    Griffhiggins 2.2 clifgriffin's Avatar
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    This probably goes over some of what TGLC said....that's because I agree with him.

    I frankly think your being unrealistic.

    If Microsoft did not have the best product, they would not be at the top with 95% computer usage.

    If Microsoft had not innovated...technology would be seriously behind where it is today. We would all be buying overpriced comptuers from a company called Macintosh...that incidentally, wouldn't give you hardware choice. Everyone would complain about them everytime a virus was released and point to alternatives such as IBM and say "Why aren't there any viruses exploiting IBM?".

    (Which reminds me, my computer running Lycoris has hung 3 times in the last 2 weeks. It doesn't even show an error message...at least the BSOD gives you that.)

    Back to the subject.

    Microsoft thrives on our support...like it or not. Every time Microsoft tries to innovate and advance technology, people scoff and cry "wolf!". You pretend as if Microsoft doesn't have vested interest in satisfying it's customers...you pretend that people don't have a choice. Well we do have a choice...I've used a mac(who couldn't even think up a 2 button mouse), I've used Linux...Microsoft is superior.

    All of the things you listed are innovations that have been exploited. No one forced you to use their product. So Microsoft redirects nonexistent urls to it's site...so what. So does Netscape last time I checked....try it for yourself.

    Activation is painless and confidential. It has been proven that the hardware key can not be traced back to even individual pieces of hardware...and certainly not a certain computer. They left it so broad that similar computers will slip through the cracks.

    If people didn't steal from them they wouldn't have done it at all.

    About Java...let's be realistic...how often do you use Java? If you're like me...it's once every couple months. I did not feal inconvenienced when I had to download Java.

    Microsoft doesn't own Java...their competition does...why would you force them to include a 3rd party software product witht their software? Do we make pepsi sell coke? Why does nobody complain that Microsoft doesn't include Shockwave in Windows? I use that more often than Java.

    It actually makes me feel better that I will no longer have to check weekly for the latest security update...I'll have the peace of mind knowing I'll be up to date.

    No one is making you use Microsoft's products....or download their service packs. Read the EULA, if you don't like it...don't use it.

    The day Microsoft ceases to be the best...I'll stop buying their stuff.

    [/end rant]

    Peace,
    Clif

  8. #28
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    Originally posted by TallGuyLittleCar
    Originally posted by johnie


    95% of all PCs running MS Windows and over 90% of All computer Users use MS Office. That's not a free market. If you go and try to get funding, like Indreama did, to produce a product that directly competes with a MS product investors will laugh you out of the room-

    So an investors freedom to decide who they invest in is not a freemarket? When I think of free market I think of something void of government controls. Which as far as i know (for the most part) ms is not bank rolled by the fed gov.
    3 Chip Makers- Hmm that doesn't sound like very much competition to me. Why are there only 3 chipmakers for such a large market???? Sounds like an Oligopoly to me.
    Do you have a refridgerator? there are only 2 refridgerator manufactures, everything is a rebadge of one of those two. There are only 2 or 3 tire makers in the worldl(some smaller ones),everything else is a rebadge. And considering Larger coporations (usually) are more efficient in production I see this as something that will continue. However if you want a very good product you are best searching out a small company.
    -MS might care about there customers but not enough to change 97% of thier behaviors as they believe that everyone feels as if they are locked in at the desktop level to windows. They know this.
    yeah they do know this, but anyone can read and learn about their options. No one is forced to buy a MS O/S.
    I don't think a company should be punished for legally exploiting stupidity.

    Its not a free market if there are bariers of entry into the market or out of the market. By definition the fact that investors will not fund projects that compete with MS is a pretty big barier.

    They are a monopoly. They have been found by the courts to have maintained their monopoly through ilegal means. Its Ironic that the Service Pack in question is in existance today in large part due to the proposed (Not Finalized) anti-trust settlement that the DOJ and MS have agreed to. This is also why they have also anounced that they are disclosing 200+ API's that were previously undocumented (Read Hidden) that MS Middleware used. These Hidden APIs made it harder if not impossible for other software makers to create software that interoperated or even ran as well as the MS products.

    Until just recently you could not purchase a PC from any of the top 20 OEMS without a MS OS. This was due to ilegal contracts they entered into with MS. This is one of the reasons why they were found in voilation of 8 counts of ant-trust law.

    The fact that you have alternatives does not mean that they do not own a monopoly.

    @Lansite- Its still pretty hard to not buy a PC without a copy of Windows and if you are going through Dell, Gateway, HP/Compaq (although if you live in Europe you can buy a HP with Linux if you really dig through there site), or Emachines you can't get one without a MS productivity suite either... Your options are amall almost unheard of OEMs like Microtel or another such WhiteBox Maker. Corp consumers will not purchase through these chanels. Many consumers will not purchase through these chanels. There still isn't much choice.

    Furthermore this Service pack was in part designed to comply with DOJ anti-trust settlement provisions but they amended the Liscense agreement when introducing it. This isn't exactly fair as many who used and purchased Windows under the old EULA will now have to decide to agree with the new terms in which windows is liscensed or not recieve the benifit from the DOJ-Antitrust settlement thus making the settlement moot.


  9. #29
    TheForceIsStrongWithThisOne dvdvault's Avatar
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    well,

    a fair few opinions there...but ill hold off for a while i think...im all up to date, bar SP3...'it aint broke..so i won't fix it'

    As for the whole MS love/hate discussion..

    Its really quite simple...OS software is a 2 edged sword is it a buyers market or a sellers market...well...its (like always) up to the individual..there no doubt that MS has more than the lions share...and why shouldn't they...they have the best product...yeah, it could be better, but comparativley, its the best...

    Its a simple concept: choice! use it or dont..quite simple...its not Microsofts fault that the option to not use it, means you must use an inferior product, is it?? It just sounds like a good business model to me...

    Hard now, are the days when a company is penalised for being good....

    Like it or not, its really a necessity...and a pretty good one

    IMHO

  10. #30

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    Clif, though I agree with the spirit of your post, Johnie's 'issues' re: MS have been regarding security and privacy - or the lack thereof. Though it's supposed to be 'understood' the downloads are for product updates - he takes issue with the fact that the EULA determines it can be done at their will. He doesn't like that - and apparently he's trying to do something about it (changing laws, etc) and quite obviously - informing everyone.

    Take note: I'm not an MS basher - nor am I an MS pusher ... I don't agree with all their practices, but this is what I *choose* to use ... and support ... and fix ...


    Many people would take umbrage at your argument that MS initiated technology for many of their features - so stand forewarned

    And the non-esistent url thingy can be changed if you're using the quick search feature of IE - to send you to Google or anywhere you'd like ... but seeing as how it is *MSIE* - - they somehow saw fit to direct traffic their own way - odd, isn't it?

    Anyway ...

  11. #31
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    Originally posted by clifgriffin
    This probably goes over some of what TGLC said....that's because I agree with him.

    I frankly think your being unrealistic.

    If Microsoft did not have the best product, they would not be at the top with 95% computer usage.


    We can't be for suirwe since they used deals that are against the law with OEM makers.



    If Microsoft had not innovated...technology would be seriously behind where it is today. We would all be buying overpriced comptuers from a company called Macintosh...that incidentally, wouldn't give you hardware choice. Everyone would complain about them everytime a virus was released and point to alternatives such as IBM and say "Why aren't there any viruses exploiting IBM?".


    We don't know as others didn't have a chance to even try due to Microsfts Ilegal acts.

    Also where has MS inovated?

    Office - Its a copy of other products such as Lotus 123 and WP. Please your making me laugh. MS has never been the leader but always been playing catch up.

    MSIE- They bought it then made it mimic NS. Until they bundled it it was losing to NS and they were giving it away for free. This is why they were sued in the first place.

    DOS- They bought it. It was originally known as QDOS which stood for Quick and Dirty Operating System.

    Windows GUI- They stold it from Apple. In fact they settled with Apple over this. Why do you think they have been making MS Office for MAC over the last 5 years??

    I can point out where they are behind...

    1. Office does not have an option to export directly as PDF. Open Office, Star Office, and WP Office 10 all do.

    2. WMP can not play SWFs. Real and QT both can.

    3. MS PPT can not export as SWF. Corel Presentations can.

    4. The Formating options on WP Office are still superior to MS Word. Legally you can not use Word to write a court document as it still will not allow you to format it corectly.

    5. In terms of End User features and W3C Compliance NS is still far ahead of MSIE.

    This is just off the top of my head without trying...


    (Which reminds me, my computer running Lycoris has hung 3 times in the last 2 weeks. It doesn't even show an error message...at least the BSOD gives you that.)


    That's okay my Win 2K machine hangs on me at least 1 time a week. I havn't done anything to the Box, its straight from Dell, and am Running 2K pro, Office 2000, HTML DOC (Rarely), Adobe PS Elements (Rarely), and NS. In the 5-6 months that I have used 2K it hasn't been up more than 8 days due to it locking up. Mostly just from running MS Office.



    Back to the subject.

    Microsoft thrives on our support...like it or not. Every time Microsoft tries to innovate and advance technology, people scoff and cry "wolf!". You pretend as if Microsoft doesn't have vested interest in satisfying it's customers...you pretend that people don't have a choice. Well we do have a choice...I've used a mac(who couldn't even think up a 2 button mouse), I've used Linux...Microsoft is superior.
    The Mac purposely didn't offer a two button mouse to avoid confusion. You can get one now if you want. You've missed the point of the MAC. The two button mouse was confusing to end users thus Apple did not make one.

    The rest of your analysis is unsuported. Why is it superior... Certainly not in terms of EULAs. In fact Corel and Xandros are trying to exploit this.


    All of the things you listed are innovations that have been exploited. No one forced you to use their product. So Microsoft redirects nonexistent urls to it's site...so what. So does Netscape last time I checked....try it for yourself.

    Activation is painless and confidential. It has been proven that the hardware key can not be traced back to even individual pieces of hardware...and certainly not a certain computer. They left it so broad that similar computers will slip through the cracks.

    If people didn't steal from them they wouldn't have done it at all.


    Netscape offers you a choice of which search engine it will go to. You can even add your own search engine if you like.

    Activation has not stoped the pirates. We don't know what MS is doing with the info only what they say they are not doing with the info. Given their past record with ethical/legal choices I don't believe that they aren't using the info for marketing.


    MS treats all of its customers like thieves. This is also why they are a major contributor to the BSA and the BSA is basically the Software Gustopo- although lets not get into the BSA and whether or not an orginization that is composed for the interests of software corps should have more power than the police and FBI do.


    About Java...let's be realistic...how often do you use Java? If you're like me...it's once every couple months. I did not feal inconvenienced when I had to download Java.

    Microsoft doesn't own Java...their competition does...why would you force them to include a 3rd party software product witht their software? Do we make pepsi sell coke? Why does nobody complain that Microsoft doesn't include Shockwave in Windows? I use that more often than Java.


    I use Java Every day as I check the AP page every day and it has Java on it. Also Amazon uses Java as do a good number of sites that I visit. I know this becuase I have the SUN Java JRE, instead of MS's, which pops up when activated instead of MS's version that does not.

    Customers will still need to access Java. Netscape offers an unadultrated Java JRE why doesn't Microsoft? If they cared about customers they would offer Java. The point is that they don't care about customers.


    It actually makes me feel better that I will no longer have to check weekly for the latest security update...I'll have the peace of mind knowing I'll be up to date.


    I won't. I want to know that a patch does not re-open another security hole- (several MS Patches do) and that it will not break my apps. Also I don't trust MS not to install their idea of what a DRM dhould be on my machine. The Patch they sent to Korean users was infected with a virus. In short I don't trust them. I'll test any patch before I apply it- thank you very much...

    They don't need Root access to my machine period.



    No one is making you use Microsoft's products....or download their service packs. Read the EULA, if you don't like it...don't use it.

    The day Microsoft ceases to be the best...I'll stop buying their stuff.

    [/end rant]

    Peace,
    Clif
    I disagree that they are the best and at least at work I am forced to use their wares. There is also costs associated with not using MS products.


    MY REAL BEEF ABOUT THIS IS:


    See my prior post about how this SP is part of the DOJ. As this SP is part of the DOJ settlement to allow users the option of using the Middleware of their choice and then they do this catch 22 on us with changes to the EULA...

    [rant]I think it should not count or should invalidate the DOJ settlement as this element of the liscensing was not part of the settlement.[/rant]

  12. #32
    Griffhiggins 2.2 clifgriffin's Avatar
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    I think he's missing the point though. The point should not be that there is a new EULA on a product update. I believe this is in response not only to the DOJ, but to user requests.

    I'm not scared of what Microsoft is going to update my computer with I trust they will use it only for legit purposes. It would be stupid for them to try to use it for any other reason.

    They are a monopoly.
    95% is not a monopoly...regardless of what Big Brother says. Microsoft is much different than AT&T. People had no choice but to use AT&T previously. Everyone has a choice concering Microsoft's products.

    And as far as computers coming with Windows...that's only natural. You can still build your own if you wish. Linux is frankly not a good solution for that average consumer...which is why manufacturers don't waste money adding it to their product line.

  13. #33

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    Can I call 'em or what?



  14. #34
    I Mastered Dead Technology TallGuyLittleCar's Avatar
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    Originally posted by johnie

    Its not a free market if there are bariers of entry into the market or out of the market. By definition the fact that investors will not fund projects that compete with MS is a pretty big barier.
    Linux? looks like windows has compitition.
    MS crushed the competition through illegal and unethical means, But it is not a monopoly. Was there competition for windows? I remember OS warp from IBM, but no others for home users. You may very well know more.

    There are options. It is a free market, I don't think linux is getting slapped with a tax or tarrif that MS is not. Nor is Mac.

    Johnie, as always very informative posts.
    you are really a group of people aren't you. No one person should know quite that much, very disturbing
    personally, I think MS should have been split up due to their unethical and illegal activities.

    CLiff? windows superior? then why is apache on linux so popular as apposed to nt or 2000? Why do our federal agencies concerned with security using linux over MS?

    I'm sure you meant superior concerning the average home user.



    [Edited by TallGuyLittleCar on 08-07-2002 at 09:45 PM]

  15. #35
    Griffhiggins 2.2 clifgriffin's Avatar
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    I'm sure you meant superior concerning the average home user.

    Exactly, which proves my point I made previously. Microsoft is behind in this market because they have yet to match the competition. They rely on consumers to get their products to number one.

    Microsoft innovates every day...they have brought countless innovations to web development. ActiveX, asp, Passport, the whole .NET plan for that matter. They lead in innovation as far as that goes.

    Microsoft bought license to the windows gui..from Apple. Apple didn't see them as a big threat...and stupidly sold their idea to them.

    I didn't say Microsoft has invented every product they have. That's one of things I like about them...they can enter practically any field, and overtake the leader...through a better product.

    Microsoft did some unscrupulous and illegal things, but to attribute that to all their successes does them a disservice.

    For every feature you name that Microsoft doesn't have, there are plenty of others that the competion doesn't have.

    (I don't write many legal documents...and neither do most users. )

    BTW, I had W2k pro running on the same computer I have linux running on now...it ran for 2 months solid without a crash.

    I should say that I'm not against other solutions...I'm actually enjoying learning linux. Whenever a competing product comes out...I usually try it out. Most cases I end up back with Microsoft...and that's not just because I like MS products.
    StarOffice, for instance. I downloaded it thinking it would save me tons of money...I found out it was crap as far as usability goes...so much so that I can't honestly recommend it to clients...which is what I'd hoped to do.

    You'd never know it but I'm actually a big AMD supporter.

    Anyway, I'm tired of this debate.

    It's clear that I'm a big MS supporter and you're a big alternative supporter...this debate could go on for days.

    Later,
    Clif

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