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[Asclepeos]

sorry for the messy grammar, I'm a work

I recently got a few jobs from small companies, and it was odd how they all wanted me to work at their place. Maybe because they believe that there's not a lot to webpages except typing. With the creation of Dreamweaver, and to a lesser extent Frontpage, I'm starting to think that myself.

I of course suggested that they should have a flash site but the "download plugin" worried them and I wasn't in the mood to extol flash at the moment. So like all smaller comapnies they just wanted a plain HTML site with some scripting at the side.

The salary to say the east was 'fair'. Anything that kept me out of the 5-10 burger wage was great.

As I got down to work I realized how meticulous it was to place images- scan and crop. It also came to me how some languages are near death because of our generosity. HTML died because of sheer simplicity and javascript is near death because it's easy to rip and because people are posting it everywhere. The same senario is occuring with flash, and now PHP. people can just find a tutorial on how to make things and simply copy the end result.

EVen though I toiled to create a search engine in PHP there's already been 10 posted on the internet. the only thing that brought me comfort was the fact that mine didn't require mysql or any database functions, mine was original.

it's difficult for me to say this but we musn't be too kind in helping others. It's oxymoronic in this society to help one person on some actionscript and then ask for a job vacancy.

[swampy]

Same with any profession. Someone has to teach you.

[nocrapchurch]

I think you bring up some valid points. About three months ago, a developer interviewed for a management position with the company I work at. During the interview, he was asked why, after developing for ten years, did he want to move into management? He said that developing has become so easy with all the tools available that more and more people are doing it. Less training is required, so developers are getting paid less.

On the other hand, I think the key is to keep evolving. Although there are thousands of .FLA files out there for developers to "learn" from, 2advanced doesn't seem to have a problem creating new and exciting Flash sites that are original.

As with any programming language, those who use it must evolve and grow if they want to stay on top of the other professionals.

-scott
http://www.scottmanning.com/

[erova]

i agree that there will always be a market for innovation and effective communication.

those that rip code or copy styles aren't even in the same league as most well-paid developers/designers, and often times the work they copied will be flawed in a lot of other areas as well.

i'm not sure at all what you mean by "html is dead".

and i really don't think you're contradicting yourself or shooting yourself in the foot by helping someone with actionscript while looking for a new gig yourself; rather, it would seem that someone with the capacity and understanding to teach a novice how to use a program would be in much greater demand than someone just picking it up with no applicable experience.

[Gloomycus]

Originally posted by nocrapchurch
I think you bring up some valid points. About three months ago, a developer interviewed for a management position with the company I work at. During the interview, he was asked why, after developing for ten years, did he want to move into management? He said that developing has become so easy with all the tools available that more and more people are doing it. Less training is required, so developers are getting paid less.

On the other hand, I think the key is to keep evolving. Although there are thousands of .FLA files out there for developers to "learn" from, 2advanced doesn't seem to have a problem creating new and exciting Flash sites that are original.

As with any programming language, those who use it must evolve and grow if they want to stay on top of the other professionals.

-scott
http://www.scottmanning.com/

I consider 2advanced sites to be the same thing over and over again.

[BrainTea]

Originally posted by erova

those that rip code or copy styles aren't even in the same league as most well-paid developers/designers, and often times the work they copied will be flawed in a lot of other areas as well.

And, how could you possibly customize or fix something that went wrong? The buck stops with the one who really knows how it's done.

[Asclepeos]

Originally posted by BrainTea

Originally posted by erova

those that rip code or copy styles aren't even in the same league as most well-paid developers/designers, and often times the work they copied will be flawed in a lot of other areas as well.

And, how could you possibly customize or fix something that went wrong? The buck stops with the one who really knows how it's done.

why would you pusblish mishapen code?

[hurricaneone]

I think that although a lot of source code my be 'free' and widely available to copy and paste (even some complex examples), it does not mean that the original coding takes any less talent. Reading through your post, the only thing that kept popping up in my head was, 'this guy's just got no imagination, no drive, no inspiration'. I think that the widespread availability of certain features should only make true coding guys really stretch their brains and create bigger and better things. It's what I try and do with my designs; it's what you should do with your code.

Your post seems defeatist. If you keep thinking like that, it will become your own self-fulfilling prophecy that your career will come to a swift, screeching halt. I get a little pressured, thinking about new and better ways to do the same thing, but that's the responsibility of the position, take it ir leave it.
[Edited by hurricaneone on 08-17-2002 at 11:54 PM]

[Asclepeos]

hurricane

I didn't not post to receive a psychological evaluation. I posted to state an opinion. Hopefully I'm entitled to one here. But you seem to attempt to discredit me by labeling me an uninspired designer, without drive or imagination. Not only is it presumptuous buy you've managed to sprinkle some egotism on the side.

Your opinion ended when you finished your first sentence. the rest was a subtle flame.

[untitled]

I agree with hurricane on the self-fulfilling prophecy. Some people just enjoy it while others are doing it for the paycheck.

[hurricaneone]

Asclepeos,

I would not presume to discredit you on any level. How could I? I've not even looked at your work, so an attempt at tainting your good name would be foolhardy, at best.

I appreciate your post was an opinion, and of course, you are entitled to an opinion here, as am I. So, I'll perhaps say that you were having a bad day (everyone has bad days, so don't take that as a psychological evaluation) and felt that, on top of everything else, newbies are taking too much credit for other people work.

Other than that, I have no choice but to call it as I read it. Your comments are discouraging to those who share their time and work (there's plenty around Fk) who, if your words were 100% true, would I'm sure feel completely taken advantage of and would stop their tutoring immediately. But your points are less than accurate, so people still offer their help, open source, etc and the world continues spinning.

I am actually sincerely sorry if my first post was offensive or seemed egotistical, but I am pretty good at reading comprehension, so I feel as though I've interepreted your point of view correctly. Whether that remains your point of view, I don't know.

[Asclepeos]

disenchantment and pessimism does not denote failure or the lack of abilities.

[hurricaneone]

So are you terminally disenchanted and pessimistic? I consider myself to be one fine example of a jaded, cynical git, but sometimes even I still find a ray of hope, a small slice of joy in how I put things together.

Surprising but true.

Let me make it perfectly clear. I have but one goal in this interaction. I would like to convince you that all is not lost, the code that newbies cut and paste (although I'm sure your php search engine app took a long time to write) is only the tip of the iceberg, leaving the vast potential of all the combined codes and softwares at the disposal of those prepared to go beyond the simple. It is yours. Go beyond the introductory. I think that if you can make the search engine in php, then you are skilled enough to advance to the next level, and that I'm sure whatever you create will be beyond the simplistic tactics some might favour, as well as make you feel better about what you do.

Evangelical-sounding, isn't it? Just be assured, I didn't mean it to sound that way. I'm not a particularly God-fearing person.

[Xty]

Goodday!
As one who learned virtually everything I know from examples and tutorials posted by worthy developers/designers I would like to say thank you to all those who have helped me. I live in a remote area on a small island (pop. 250) and have no other means of learning.I take what I learn from examples and apply them to the things I work on - that's apply, not copy. Those who merely cut and paste learn only how to cut and paste and that is their loss. They go no further than the next cut and paste, while true developers are already onto the next thing. Don't let those who use others work discourage you from helping those who want to learn. You are appreciated!