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Thread: 911 - a year later

  1. #61
    Nope, America has killed aproximatly 4,000 civilians in it's war in Afganistan. Thank you.

  2. #62
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    Originally posted by clifgriffin

    Now I realize that the whole belief of some of these murderes is that America should be destroyed...I don't know how to fight that except for making sure you destroy every faction of them that you know exists.
    You really, really don't get it do you?

    You don't want to understand why they feel the way that they do.

    You don't want to understand how American, yes American, policies over 50 years and more have contributed to reaching this point.

    And heaven forbid that you would try to find a better solution through understanding and accepting certain cultural and political differences, and working out how to live side by side with those differences, rather than forcing your own cultural and political beliefs down their throats.

    Thankfully you're just a scared little boy, but the scary thing is that there are people in power with a similar viewpoint.

    God help humanity.




  3. #63
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    Something to read, and hopefully take in...

    There are no longer the guilty ones and the innocent ones in the old sense. We are not obliged to look for and remove the guilty ones, but to look for the reasons.The reasons lay in a worldwide system of exploitation and barbarism, driven by economic organizations, governments, armies, and intelligence agencies. They lay in a false economic order which is based on consumerism, destruction of nature and the exploitation of the poor parts of the world. They lay in a system where life is job, marriage, career and consumerism, leading to this exploitation of which we are all more or less a part.



  4. #64
    Griffhiggins 2.2 clifgriffin's Avatar
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    Originally posted by TheOriginalFlashDavo
    You really, really don't get it do you?

    You don't want to understand why they feel the way that they do.
    Since when is it neccessary to understand MURDERERS?!

    Do we take common theives and try to find the hidden motive and justify their acts? Do we BLAME the victim of crimes for making the murderer mad?

    You don't want to understand how American, yes American, policies over 50 years and more have contributed to reaching this point.
    So they don't like our policies...neither do you. Does that justify murder? America stands for a lot of things that the rest of the world doesn't find PC.

    And heaven forbid that you would try to find a better solution through understanding and accepting certain cultural and political differences, and working out how to live side by side with those differences, rather than forcing your own cultural and political beliefs down their throats.
    Yeah you're right..we should've given peace a chance. How wrong can I be? Last time I checked...Osama is the one that is all about violence. As I recall..we were giving peace a chance...even when being attacked by these guys previously. Why don't you give the little "live peacfully with your neighbor speech" to the Al Queda network. You seem to forget who attacked who. You seem to see our retaliation as worse than the terrible violence that Osama came out with. Incredible. You are so blind.

    Thankfully you're just a scared little boy, but the scary thing is that there are people in power with a similar viewpoint.
    When all else fails, call your opponent a little boy. Gee, I should've thought of that.

    God help humanity.
    God save us from people like you...who justify sensless murder. Who are so blind they wouldn't know sensibility if they bumped into it on the road.

    I'm just sick of it!

    I read the Sep 11 thread that DP posted today...for the first time. It really touched me to see the out pouring of support we received from people all around the world. People genuinely caring..all around the world. And then we have people like you..who blame us the victims...and write off Osama's sentence as "aggravated assualt". It really is depressing. It's insensitive. And it is really making me mad...to hear the lives of 3,000 american trivialized for the sake of liberal, socialist spin.

    Clif

  5. #65
    FK's Pro Snowboarder dpark's Avatar
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    Eh, for all you Americans out there... I got 5 WORDS FOR YA.......





















    Canada is by your side.....

    And we always will be...

    I A M C A N A D I A N . . . . EH!

  6. #66
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    Originally posted by Elite_Flash_man
    Nope, America has killed aproximatly 4,000 civilians in it's war in Afganistan. Thank you.
    Prove it buddy...that number is just a tad bit larger than the Pentagon's figures.

    (And let me guess, the pentagon is run by bearacratic, liars who are in a vast conspiracy with the american media to keep us from the truth, so only reliable, liberal, European news sources know...)

    Dpark..thanks buddy.


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    Since when is it neccessary to understand MURDERERS?!
    usually understanding why someone does something is the first step to avoiding it in the future

    So they don't like our policies...neither do you. Does that justify murder? .
    apparantly much as we killed thousands of Vietnamese over a fear of an economic ideology

    Yeah you're right..we should've given peace a chance. How wrong can I be? Last time I checked...Osama is the one that is all about violence. As I recall..we were giving peace a chance...even when being attacked by these guys previously. Why don't you give the little "live peacfully with your neighbor speech" to the Al Queda network. You seem to forget who attacked who. You seem to see our retaliation as worse than the terrible violence that Osama came out with. Incredible. You are so blind.
    The same can be said of you and more so- at least he trys to look at the different view points and reasons that these tragedies happen- and how to resolve them- all you seem to want to do is hop back into another war- go uproot another country- go mess up some people so you can feel better about yourself when really you did nothing- and sacrificed nothing

    God save us from people like you...who justify sensless murder. Who are so blind they wouldn't know sensibility if they bumped into it on the road.

    I'm just sick of it!
    who is justifying murder?

    we're sick of people putting words into our mouths because we are pacifists- we're anti- American, we support the Terrorists- yeah because we don't want to see further bloodshed that makes us terrorists and unpatriotic-the fact that we believe that Nations should be able to get along harmoniously and that grown men should act like Adults and not like school children makes us Evil , is that it?

    don't you dare say that because someone has a liberal social agenda or an open mind that they trivialise 9-11, you freakin bastard-how dare you -we feel that pain as much as anyone-and we actually would like to see that cycle of violence ended- all you can do is perpetuate it with racism and intolerance.

    People around the world did show their support - and you turn around and spit on them all the time so please spare me the violins

    stop acting like a little boy an people won't call you a little boy

  8. #68
    I Mastered Dead Technology TallGuyLittleCar's Avatar
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    Originally posted by TheOriginalFlashDavo


    You really, really don't get it do you?

    You don't want to understand why they feel the way that they do.

    You don't want to understand how American, yes American, policies over 50 years and more have contributed to reaching this point.
    Well, please explain. Perhaps a few "americans" would listen. And you would be doing something to stop all the awful "oppression" at the hands of the U.S. government.

    Right now sounds like your throwing the same venom, just from the opposite side of the net.

  9. #69
    Yeah right, like the Pentagon is going to admit they killed more people in the war against terror than the terror killed itself, innocence wise lol.

  10. #70
    Griffhiggins 2.2 clifgriffin's Avatar
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    usually understanding why someone does something is the first step to avoiding it in the future

    I guess I was under the impression that murder was murder...no excuse whatsoever.


    apparantly much as we killed thousands of Vietnamese over a fear of an economic ideology
    News flash...we were their on a defensive mission..not an offensive one. (Which is why we lost.) We were protecting South Veitnam, who incidentally, were defeated almost immediately after we left. I don't call military vs. military murder.

    BTW, I've never once said I support these wars that were battles of idealogy..not once.

    The same can be said of you and more so- at least he trys to look at the different view points and reasons that these tragedies happen- and how to resolve them- all you seem to want to do is hop back into another war- go uproot another country- go mess up some people so you can feel better about yourself when really you did nothing- and sacrificed nothing
    Fact: Osama, with the aid of the Taliban murdered 3,000 fellow citizens.

    Fact: We dismantled the Taliban and are pursuing Osama and will eventually get him...if he's still alive.

    Fact: We only attacked Afghanistan BECAUSE of 9/11...we were not eager to go to war with anyone and wouldn't have if Osama hadn't commited his evil.

    who is justifying murder?
    Not you, although in the following paragraphs you seem to think I was writing you...and not TheOriginalFlashDavo.

    we're sick of people putting words into our mouths because we are pacifists
    I'm a pacifist too. I'm a responsible pacifist though. I realize that it is sometimes neccessary to use military force to protect yourself, or deliver yourself from oppression.

    we're anti- American, we support the Terrorists-
    I never said either of you was anti-american..or terrorist supporters. I did object..and show what I feel was righteous anger at the way America seems to be a bigger culprit in the eyes of TOFD, than Osama in this world.

    yeah because we don't want to see further bloodshed
    Neither do I..

    that makes us terrorists and unpatriotic-
    I never said that.

    the fact that we believe that Nations should be able to get along harmoniously and that grown men should act like Adults and not like school children
    I agree...to bad we have idiots like Saddam Hussein who are willing to collaborate with idiots like Osama bin Laden to hurt as many people as possible.

    makes us Evil , is that it?
    No...I never said that.

    [bn't you dare say that because someone has a liberal social agenda or an open mind that they trivialise 9-11[/b]
    Once again...I did not say that. I said that in a desperate attempt to avoid a clear cut situation of Osama=Evil, America=Innocent, he delved into "nobodies at fault" spin. I did use the term liberal and socialist...but certainly did not intend to label all liberals and socialists as people who think this way.

    freakin bastard-
    Thank you. Not only have you put words in my mouth...no you call me petty insults...please, spare me.

    how dare you -we feel that pain as much as anyone-
    I never said you didn't...I didn't even say that TOFD didn't.

    and we actually would like to see that cycle of violence ended-
    So do I..but realistically speaking maniacs like Osama bin Laden can not be appeased, their life goal is to kill as many american and european citizens as possible. The only way the cycle can end with people like that, is if you completly disable them in every way you can. Unfortunately, I doubt that the cylcle of violence can every completly stop...lets face it, humans are stupid. I do believe it can slow...and this has been demonstrated numerous times over history.

    all you can do is perpetuate it with racism and intolerance.
    Where have I demonstrated my dislike of terrorists...or anyone else is based on their race or ethnicity, or religion? I'd really like to know. Intolernace...sure I'm intolerant of murder..as you are.

    I consider myself to be very tolerant. I get along with people of all beliefs..as you can see from my forum, I have many good friends of all races, nationlities..and sexual orientations...even you as a liberal.

    It seems to me you're being intolerant of my viewpoint.

    [bPeople around the world did show their support - and you turn around and spit on them all the time so please spare me the violins[/b]

    I never denied they did...and just because they did does not mean we are indebted to them so that we can not make decisions independently..that we feel betters us.

    stop acting like a little boy an people won't call you a little boy
    Whatever.

    Peace,
    Clif

  11. #71
    Griffhiggins 2.2 clifgriffin's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Elite_Flash_man
    Yeah right, like the Pentagon is going to admit they killed more people in the war against terror than the terror killed itself, innocence wise lol.
    Figures... Try this on for size.

    "Yeah right, like the Taliban is going to give fair civilian counts when they know they are getting their butts kicked by the US."

    I'm sorry if I tend to trust the Pentagon more than the Taliban and their little "tours" they gave western journalists.

    Unlike the journalists, the Pentagon has actually sent guys payed to investigate each individual situation to get to the truth.

    Clif

  12. #72
    FK's Pro Snowboarder dpark's Avatar
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    A -

    Nevermind, no point... Clif's here

  13. #73
    Griffhiggins 2.2 clifgriffin's Avatar
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    Originally posted by dpark
    A -

    Nevermind, no point... Clif's here
    What's that supposed to mean?


  14. #74
    FK's Pro Snowboarder dpark's Avatar
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    I was going to post something similar to ur last:P

  15. #75
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    I guess I was under the impression that murder was murder...no excuse whatsoever.
    nobodys making excuses or saying its not murder - what does that have to do with understanding why it happened?

    News flash...we were their on a defensive mission..not an offensive one. (Which is why we lost.) We were protecting South Veitnam, who incidentally, were defeated almost immediately after we left. I don't call military vs. military murder.

    BTW, I've never once said I support these wars that were battles of idealogy..not once.
    No you just justify and rationalize it- thats really very different

    Fact: Osama, with the aid of the Taliban murdered 3,000 fellow citizens.

    Fact: We dismantled the Taliban and are pursuing Osama and will eventually get him...if he's still alive.

    Fact: We only attacked Afghanistan BECAUSE of 9/11...we were not eager to go to war with anyone and wouldn't have if Osama hadn't commited his evil.
    yes except that its already starting to leak out that the Bush administration started to threaten the Taliban when his oil pipeline deal fell through- nonetheless I will assume its all true as you say
    - but what did you sacrifice?

    are you related to any of these people-
    http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/Da...asualties.html

    its easy to WE are making a sacrifice but its the wifes mothers and fathers of these people not to mention the innocent Afghans who have been killed as well - though I will blame the Taliban as responsible for those deaths



    In reponse to everything else you posted I suggest re-reading your own words :


    God save us from people like you...who justify sensless murder. Who are so blind they wouldn't know sensibility if they bumped into it on the road.

    I'm just sick of it!

    I read the Sep 11 thread that DP posted today...for the first time. It really touched me to see the out pouring of support we received from people all around the world. People genuinely caring..all around the world. And then we have people like you..who blame us the victims...and write off Osama's sentence as "aggravated assualt". It really is depressing. It's insensitive. And it is really making me mad...to hear the lives of 3,000 american trivialized for the sake of liberal, socialist spin.


    You've made racist comments on this very board , you constantly reiterate how stupid everyone is - the only evil in the world could only possibly come from Liberals and foriegn govenments- don't sit there and tell me that you are so open minded , blah, blah-Im not buying it and frankly I don't need to- you're fine who are you are - just admit thats what you are and don't try to play the pacifist , open minded role when you know thats not true

    peace back at ya

  16. #76
    Griffhiggins 2.2 clifgriffin's Avatar
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    God save us from people like you...who justify sensless murder.

    I didn't mean you.. And in no way did I mean anyone hear supported or condoned such evil. I did mean that many love to make excuses for it...everything else aside.

    And then we have people like you..who blame us the victims...and write off Osama's sentence as "aggravated assualt". It really is depressing. It's insensitive. And it is really making me mad...to hear the lives of 3,000 american trivialized for the sake of liberal, socialist spin.

    It has been reiterated many times by TOFD that we as Americans are at least partially at fault for 9/11...

    Whether or not it is purposeful, speech that lessens the guilt of murderers...or begins to justify it any small way, lessens the value of the lives of the victim. I never said this was purposeful.

    You've made racist comments on this very board
    Please show some examples...even if you have to cite from memory.

    you constantly reiterate how stupid everyone is
    I've never meant to call anyone here personally stupid. I do think that liberalism is a stupid idea..and have called it that on many occassions...probably way too much. This has nothing to do with the intelligence of the people
    proposing the idea.

    The only people I remember actually calling stupid were those protesters vandalizing police cars to prove their point...I call anyone who does that for any belief stupid.

    the only evil in the world could only possibly come from Liberals and foriegn govenments
    Hello...never said that once.

    don't sit there and tell me that you are so open minded
    To many on this board, being open minded means that you don't know exactly what you believe. There are many subjects...hundreds that are open for debate with me...that I still have fairly strong viewpoints. Then there are other issues..such as religion, that I've reached conclusive decisions about...decisions I could never go back on...they are closed for debate. This is especially confusing to people who aren't sure of their beliefs on religious subjects. They see my refusal to accept their beliefs...or show any doubt that reflects the doubt they feel...as blind, close mindedness. It isn't that at all. We all have issues that we have reached conclusive, nearly permanent decisions on.

    blah, blah-Im not buying it and frankly I don't need to-
    I try to be open minded when possible..but that doesn't mean it will be to your satisfaction.

    you're fine who are you are
    I know.
    - just admit thats what you are
    I've just told you what I am.

    and don't try to play the pacifist , open minded role when you know thats not true

    Just because your version of pacifism doesn't align with my version of pacifism, doesn't mean that I'm lying.

    I've explained this numerous times...I don't need to into it again.

    Frankly I'm a little confused on how this debate got so personal...like why are we debating me..instead of 9/11 politics?

    I was trying to stay out of this debate, but I guess I just got sucked in like everyone else.

    Clif

  17. #77
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    Originally posted by Elite_Flash_man
    Yeah right, like the Pentagon is going to admit they killed more people in the war against terror than the terror killed itself, innocence wise lol.
    I don't care what they say; where did you get your numbers?

  18. #78
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    Originally posted by TallGuyLittleCar
    Originally posted by TheOriginalFlashDavo

    You really, really don't get it do you?

    You don't want to understand why they feel the way that they do.

    You don't want to understand how American, yes American, policies over 50 years and more have contributed to reaching this point.
    Well, please explain. Perhaps a few "americans" would listen. And you would be doing something to stop all the awful "oppression" at the hands of the U.S. government.

    Right now sounds like your throwing the same venom, just from the opposite side of the net.
    Firstly, I am not claiming that American policies have been the only one that have caused oppression within this world of ours. Our own (Australia's) government have a lot to answer for in such areas as their treatment of the indigenous population, and their policies on refugees, but this was a discussion on the events of Sep 11, and on the mindless trumpeting of killing to "solve" the dangers.

    The first step to find a true, lasting solution is always to regognise your own failings. Only from that start can a true solution be found...


  19. #79
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    Originally posted by TheOriginalFlashDavo
    You don't want to understand how American, yes American, policies over 50 years and more have contributed to reaching this point.
    I'm just curious... care to expound upon this? I mean, in detail, if you don't mind, please.

    Thank you in advance.

  20. #80
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    Originally posted by clifgriffin

    I read the Sep 11 thread that DP posted today...for the first time. It really touched me to see the out pouring of support we received from people all around the world. People genuinely caring..all around the world. And then we have people like you..who blame us the victims...and write off Osama's sentence as "aggravated assualt". It really is depressing. It's insensitive. And it is really making me mad...to hear the lives of 3,000 american trivialized for the sake of liberal, socialist spin.
    Don't even attempt to go there about being "touched" by the events of September 11 - you have no idea mate...




    Your further comments only show you have a lot of growing to do - and that has nothing to do with age.

    Yes, you do seek to understand why murderers, thieves, and any criminals committed crimes. You look at both personal and social issues surrounding the purpetrator to determine if it was truly their fault, or if a combination of different situations - such as being sexually assaulted as a child, or being mentally deficient in some way, or a miriad other possibilities - have contributed to them committing the crime.

    And you do also look at the victim in some circumstances, to see if they were at fault in anyway. For example, I may kill someone because they have previously killed my 5 year old daughter. Should I be sentenced like any other killer?

    You may not believe that American foreign policy has caused needless deaths overseas, but you must realise that a lot is being said of that ilk both from inside and outside the US. Are they all lies? Are they all wrong? To think so would be niave in the least.

    As one of the earlier posts said, how far back do you want to go to "kill" the perpetrators of this horrendous crime? Why do we stop at Bin Laden? He could only do what he did thanks to American training and money? And he only did what he did due to western media.

    Think about it, rather than believe and state rhetoric.

    Again, the cycle has to end somewhere... or else we really are doomed...

    So what part of the Bible do you follow Clif? Is it the part about turn the other cheek, or the part about an eye for an eye?

    Let me guess...




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