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Thread: designer/programmer where is the line drawn....

  1. #1
    Senior Member FairyJanis's Avatar
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    i think of myself as a designer, an artist at heart. lately i have been looking at the job market. when i do find jobs under a design search it seems there looking for a programmer. where is the line drawn what makes a designer, just that, a designer, and what makes a programmer a programmer?

  2. #2
    Pessimistic ebullience evan224's Avatar
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    Angry

    Just call yourself a developer, it's easier.

    E.

  3. #3
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    What line??


  4. #4
    they call me the_jump... le_saut's Avatar
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    exactly.. just do it all and there is no line.

  5. #5
    Senior Member JFlashK's Avatar
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    yep be an all rounder that's the future, no different guy for design, programming, html, flash...
    Just one guy guy with all the skills.

  6. #6
    Senior Member FairyJanis's Avatar
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    be everything? a jack of all trades an expert in none.

  7. #7
    Senior Member JFlashK's Avatar
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    It's a choice you have to make. Be an expert or an allrounder? But you can be an allrounder but be an expert in one field. and when you need to build a team look for allrounders who are all experts in a different field. I think that's a good team.

  8. #8
    Senior Member FairyJanis's Avatar
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    point taken

  9. #9
    Junior Member IVU's Avatar
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    You really should see how job post looks in my country.
    Here is an example
    We are looking for Web Designer with Photoshop, Corel, Illustrator, HTML, PHP, ASP, JavaScript, ASP, C#, SQL, T-SQL, linux, winows, blah blah blah... and many other subjects that they dont even know what exactly mean

    There is no line its something like magic circle and the perfect applicant should know everything even if they dont need it >:-| thats why Im still freelance developer :-)

  10. #10
    is my car plate number.
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    This is a major ISSUE!!!

    Heya...

    Not just your country IVU, even in Malaysia it is the same... or I should say even WORSE... sometimes they need a designner with IT background, or a programmer with advertising background... They expect you to know everything. Here is another example...

    We are looking for designer who knows 3D animation, sketching, Flash, Director, ASP, Javascript, Windows 2000 Server, Linux administration, MS SQL, Access, Microsoft SQL, bla bla bla bla...
    fresh graduate with more than 3 years experiences are encouraged to apply/..... <-- see this, they need a fresh young punk graduated with a diploma to do all those super wonderful things, but they only want those with at least 3 years working experiences.... hmmmmmmmmm
    I don't understand about the world anymore...........


    I have been more than 4 years in computing doing a lot of odd jobs b4 (programming, networking).... But now I do designs as I have more than 8 years experiences on it... I do not know how to call my self....... Even no body dare to hire me coz I have too much of qualification.......
    Sad ... now I'm jobless...

    Just like what IVU say, applying a job is very hard for Flash-freak like us... So it's better to be a freelance designer/programmer/developer rather than working for ppl.... OR start up own web-design studio, own business........

    hmmm interesting topic..... or ... am I totatlly out of the topic????????


    Andre

  11. #11
    tell me, is this sellable..... OddDog's Avatar
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    i have a designer

    a programmer

    a content person

    thats it

    this works well, they are all all rounders but really i believe in specialists and specializacion.

  12. #12
    Moderator
    The Minister of No Crap

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    The terms "designer" and "developer" have really been distorted. This seems to happen with any role that colleges do not offer a degree for. There's no such thing as getting a bachelor degree in developing or designing. There is the same problem with consulting. So everyone has their own definition as to what the heck a consultant is. The sad part is that when this happens, the term becomes meaningless.

    At my job, I am called a "Functional Architect" or an "Interface Designer". What I do is design and layout application based on input from business analysts. I'll make screen mock-ups and write detailed notes on what each field and button should do in the user experience. I don't actually do any programming. Then the developers create the applications based on my documentation.

    Then there is a QA department of the company that tests the systems based on the documentation I put together.

    So we have four different groups of people working on project:
    Business Analysts
    Interface Designers
    Developers
    QA

    My point is that, where I work, designers and developers are different.

    -scott

  13. #13
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    Designer / Developer are just old models of development. Designer used to refer to the html designer, for layout and design of web site, while the developer was the one who programmed the functionality. Now it all depends on the project. If the project is a flash site with really no backend scripting, data linking, or middle tier business logic then you are considered a designer. If you do any part of the backend you are considered both designer and developer, and if you just do the business logic you are a developer. Actionscript has blurred the lines. In any case:

    Just be the BALL.

  14. #14
    Moderator
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    Originally posted by foci
    Designer / Developer are just old models of development. Designer used to refer to the html designer, for layout and design of web site, while the developer was the one who programmed the functionality. Now it all depends on the project. If the project is a flash site with really no backend scripting, data linking, or middle tier business logic then you are considered a designer. If you do any part of the backend you are considered both designer and developer, and if you just do the business logic you are a developer. Actionscript has blurred the lines. In any case:

    Just be the BALL.
    I disagree with this assessment. While some people may have considered an HTML coder a "designer", others considered them to "developers" or "programmers". As I already said, these terms are not clearly defined by any standard.

    Everyone has their own definition. For example, we don't let any developer/programmer make any design decisions - interface look/feel, reaction to user input, etc. Those designers are made by designers and business analysts.

    -scott

  15. #15
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    nocrapchurch

    I so agree with the distinctions you draw and think that these are healthy boundaries. We have backend programmers, HTML coders and graphic designers working here. This works well, unless deadline pressure forces the coders to think that they need to make design (read: graphics, layout, UI) decisions.

    Often cost seems to be an issue. Hire 3 high-quality professionals who work as a team or just 1 who does all the work? The first seems a lot more expensive on paper, though of course you also work much faster, can handle more projects in different stages of development, etc. I personally also think that the end-result is of a higher quality, since you have experts working in each particular field. The individual knowledge can be much deeper than in a 'one person does all' scenario.

    - n.




  16. #16
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    Designer / Developer are interrelated at the core. You cannot be a great designer without being somewhat of a developer and you can not be a great developer without knowing some design. You can excel at one or the other areas and your job may define your scope, but the result is the same, you need to have an understanding of both.

  17. #17

    Hi,

    I like the subject of this thread. I must say I used to be precious and call myself a designer, but to be a really good designer in flash you need to know how to code.

    I'm sorry but it's true. The amount of jobs I have gone into and had to take out stupid motion tweens and poorly constructed movies. Yuk. It was a big learning curve being someone who has never done any kind of programming before. But it is soooooo worth it. Code saves you time, makes your applications/websites dynamic and easy to update which of course gives you more time to spend on the design

    I don't think many people now are interested in hiring just flash designers. But that's my two cents any way.

    grandmasterC

  18. #18
    is my car plate number.
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    hey grandmaster,...

    I should say you are lucky... At least you got a job using Flash,......... In my place, they need a Flash developer with knowledge of MS-SQL, PHP, Access, ASP, IIS, 3 years experience at least,..... bla bla bla bla bla.....

    In my place, no one will look up on you no matter how good you are in the field unless if you are doing business..... a pure Chinaman thinkin I guess.....

    Andre

  19. #19
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    designer or developer

    About five years ago some colleagues and I re-categorized ourselves from 'designers' to 'multi-tasking creatives'. Because not only do we design (Quark/Photoshop/Illustrator etc.), we created web sites, digital video presentations etc, because they were required and nobody else was going to be drafted in to do the jobs.
    Now over ten years ago a 'designer' would be someone who drew storyboards or 'scamps' of a project for the artworker to create (we have a lady in our office who does not use a computer, and still does it all with pen and photocopier).
    What I am trying to say is that designers roles change every year, despite what the job pages categorize you as, employers are increasingly expecting a 'designer' to know it all (i.e. multi-tasking).
    I have found over the years (proper old git I am!) that learning knew skills whether they are flash actionscripting, digi video production or even how to create an autorun file for a PC, you can never know enough, and you are never paid enough!
    So, don't try to fit yourself into any pidgeonhole of 'designer' or 'developer', just leave those names for people who ask what you do for a living. They might not understand 'multi-tasking creative'.

  20. #20
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    i think you forgetting something here... designer / developper... there are words that used alone dont mean anything... try this : make a business card with only your name on it + a title, designer (or developper) for example... and you'll end up having people asking you what you do for a living...

    on the other hand, a two word title will do the job, take the same card, and put web-designer, gfx designer, flash developper, etc... now this time you'll end up having people talking to you about what you've put on your card eg web, flash, graphics, or whatever else you put on that damn card...


    the second case dont necessarly mean you only have mastered flash, gfx software or whatever... but that what you've put as a title is your specialty...

    'designer'... fashion industry : designing clothes ? - machinery corp : working with autocad maybe ? - 3D designer : gaming industry - whatever that requires to be sketched, a gfx soft of some sort, etc...


    that was the humble opinion of a guy working as a hmmmm, well, *ahem*... designer...

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