So, how much is a game worth ?
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Thread: So, how much is a game worth ?

  1. #1
    Hype over content... Squize's Avatar
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    So, how much is a game worth ?

    This isn't a "I've got a contract, how much should I charge" sort of post, I'm just trying to get a talking point going.

    How much is your game worth ? The one you are working on right now ( And don't pretend you're not you little minx. We're all working on games right now )

    OK, you know your game rocks. Where you going to sell it ? Say you've written the daddy of all Pac Man clones ( For example ). You tout it around the big games sites but they already have a Pac Man game in their catalogue. Yep, they know yours is better, but why pay for something twice ? They've got the same bills we have.

    What outlet is there for commercial quality games ? I'm just curious to know how many of you have a good quality game sitting on your hardrive gathering dust 'cause no one will actually buy it ( Because the genre has been done to death )

    Are the lack of commercial game sites keeping the prices low due to it being a buyers market ?

    Idealy you've just been offered a contract by Nike to produce a game based on their products, but in real life how many people here write a game just for the pleasure of it and then try and sell it ( I mean developing a game without selling the concept to a site first, or actively seeking out a contract for a title ) ?

    Is it at the stage where we have to go to a site like miniclip ( I'm just naming them 'cause they are one of the biggest ) and look what gaps they have in their current catalogue and write games based on that just to get a sale ? Where you may not be writing the game you really want to, but doing it purely from a commercial point of view.

    I'm really not after people quoting exact amounts of money, this isn't the place for that and your money is your money. I'm just curious if we are underpricing our games because there aren't enough outlets to sell them to, and if we are at the stage where trying to improve on a genre is pointless 'cause it's already been done.

    Squize.

  2. #2
    ism BlinkOk's Avatar
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    an interesting article around about this topic;
    http://www.wired.com/news/games/0,21....html/wn_ascii
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  3. #3
    Hype over content... Squize's Avatar
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    That's an interesting article, thanks Blink

    I didn't start this thread as a chance to mention it ( Honestly ) but kdsh7 and I are working on a licenceware project where games are sold on a per domain licence very cheaply. The turnaround on our games is 2-3 weeks. We are not making great games, just good ones. We aim to target the personal web page end of the market and make having a Flash game on your site as easy as a guestbook or banner Ad.

    I don't know if it'll work, it may just fall flat on it's face, but the investment has been next to nothing so at the very worst it's forcing me to fill my CV up ( And I can live with looking silly for trying )
    But in doing so are we cheapening Flash games ?

    I was talking to mBenny earlier about game distribution and the problems of genres being over done and it being a buyers market, and tried to come up with a workable "business model" ( Nasty term, but this thread is about money I guess ).

    Say for instance you found a sponsor for your game. Amazon ( First name that came to mind ) really like your game and want to pay you to have a big banner ad in your game ( Not full on re-branding, just an ad ). Where would you host the game to ensure decent traffic and therefore decent click throughs ? It's all very limited out there. Do Amazon really want a game with their name on sitting next to "Stick Man Death Ray" on Newsgrounds ? So where else are you going to find a high traffic games site ?

    Sorry if it seems I'm moaning and bitc'hing about the world, I'm not meaning to. It just feels that there are so few ways for all of us to make money on our games that it's going to stiffle development and keep prices low.

    Squize.

  4. #4
    ism BlinkOk's Avatar
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    two things iv'e noticed recently with game sites;
    1. they are now starting to ask for a per/month fee (shockwave/realnetworks)
    2. they are offering (free unfortunatly) game packages for sites (miniclip and a few others). which should be considered when licensing your game to these sites (why would anyone else license your game when they can get it for free from miniclip (or the other sites that do it).
    it seems to me that companies are rethinking the whole "free" internet thing and deciding that advertising just cannot support it. it makes sense when you look at sites like shockwave who sit atop millions of bucks worth of funding (god only knows where they've spent it) and really have little to show for it. investors are starting to say "show me the money" and these sites have no option but to tow the line.
    this means two things i think;
    1. more money for developers (yeah!)
    2. sites will demand much higher quality games.
    i think a per site games package license is a great idea though. you could add value by designing the games so you can easily embed site specific info/graphics. this would pretty much justify your license fee.

    as far as sponsors i think they would prolly host games themselves or as a supplier i would definatly nail down the terms regards hosting. most of the sponsored games i've seen are generally produced in concert with another media event (product release/advertising etc).
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  5. #5
    A very senior man mrpauly99's Avatar
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    Mr Squize - British eloquence at its best

    this one is a real can of worms. I guess we all think our games are groundbreaking (slight exag.) and worth pots and pots of money but it must come down to the buyers at the end of the day. who buys flash games? the online game sites (ie miniclip) obviously are the best bet for selling them but are there any other options? it would be great to get a contract to produce Nike's latest fun fest for its new campaign but its very unlikely its going to happen for indie guys (like i imagine most of us are). maybe we should all join forces to make the worlds definitive flash games agency.

    unfortunately theres also the limitations of flash both in the specs of the player itself and even more so the fact that most games are played online and generally have a 30 second (or less!) average playing time by each visitor. i can see why companies dont want to spend a lot on games when this is more often than not the case. having said this (if the chequebook holders are listening in) flash developers are hugely talented people and should be massively rewarded, didnt courtney love once say web designers are the new rock stars....?

  6. #6
    Senior Member tonypa's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Squize
    ..kdsh7 and I are working on a licenceware project where games are sold on a per domain licence very cheaply. The turnaround on our games is 2-3 weeks. We are not making great games, just good ones. We aim to target the personal web page end of the market and make having a Flash game on your site as easy as a guestbook or banner Ad...
    But in doing so are we cheapening Flash games ?
    Personal web page end of the market? You got to be kidding! You really expect someone to pay for having Flash game on their personal web page? May I seriously doubt it.

    Comparing the Flash game and guestbook is not well thought out. Guestbook on your site is only the program that allows guests to fill it out with the content specific to your site and so it becomes unique. But Flash game is not unique to your site, it is same game everyone else has - same graphics, same gameplay, there is nothing different in your game.
    Plus as you know, you can get guestbook for free and you get payed for putting banner ads on your page (sometimes).

    It doesnt matter whats the price is for your games, as long hundreds of similar games are available for free. Why would anyone want to pay you for the same thing?

    Originally posted by Squize
    Say for instance you found a sponsor for your game. Amazon ( First name that came to mind ) really like your game and want to pay you to have a big banner ad in your game ( Not full on re-branding, just an ad ). Where would you host the game to ensure decent traffic and therefore decent click throughs ? It's all very limited out there. Do Amazon really want a game with their name on sitting next to "Stick Man Death Ray" on Newsgrounds ? So where else are you going to find a high traffic games site ?
    You are mixing up two completely different things here. You expect someone to buy ads in your game just because its great game. Well, sad to say, but nobody is going to buy ads in some little Flash game because its not "the game" users come to play, its the site they visit. First you build up game site (like shockwave) then, when you have millions of hits per day, you sell ad space to your pages.

    Really, nobody doesnt care if host Flash games or animated gif gallery, all they care is how many people visit this site (maybe you could sell some ads for companies who sell Flash products, but thats all). What the hell are banner ads for anyway, to click them and go to some other site, meaning there has to be lots of people to see it and to click it.

    If Amazon, Nike or whoever likes your game so much, they gonna buy it and put it on their site. If you are not willing to sell it, they hire someone else to do the job. Not like Flash games are hard to make or there isnt many companies knowing how to do them and ready to take the job.

    I probably missed the whole idea you were talking about

  7. #7
    ********* mentuat's Avatar
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    I just wanted to comment on these two points:

    unfortunately theres also the limitations of flash both in the specs of the player itself and even more so the fact that most games are played online and generally have a 30 second (or less!) average playing time by each visitor.
    1. they are now starting to ask for a per/month fee (shockwave/realnetworks)
    the point where sites start to charge for content is when they realise the content has to be vastly more appealing to the consumer. From an online gaming point of view the direction I would expect gaming sites to go in is multiplayer gaming and persistence (various examples: project rockstar, couronne, dinky bomb, ***** hotel, eve online).

    This moves away from the quick '30 second' flash game instead encourages the building of a community of players that feel they are an integral part of an exclusive club, allowing them to create avatars, make decisons that affect a gaming environment encompassing many users, trading, making friends, clans and enemies. From a marketing point of view this would create a very targeted and loyal userbase who are prepared to regularly pay for quality content.

  8. #8
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    I offered to give Nintendo my Mario Bros conversion for free. I also offered to give them the sourcecode, relinquish my copyright, and said I'd undertake any changes they wanted. I thought I stood a reasonable chance of getting it on their site - let's be honest, their website looks like it was designed by monkeys (or a guy with a really, really big monitor) and the games they had online at the time didn't work.

    Needless to say they weren't interested, but said I could apply for a job at the nearest Nintendo office. I live in the UK, so that'd be a 5,000 mile trip to New York...

    So, to summarise: companies are willing to pay less than nothing for Flash games. I always thought that writing games in Flash was just a way of demonstrating your abilities to potential employers, who'd eventually get you designing tedious GUIs or banner adverts, rather than a way of making any money.

  9. #9
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    Well.....................

    Jobe mentioned right here on this board that he usually ( or used to ) sell a package of a few games for $20 000+

    I know some other companies which make games ( you can see them on Shockwave.com ) which go for $5000 - much more into 5 or even 6 digits for exclusive games. And these Shockwave.com games are garbage.

    You have to make good games and find the right people to talk to ( who knows who you spoke to at Nintendo, could have been some intern ). Then don't sell for next to nothing because of course you are cheapening the whole thing. Luckily there is still room for good games, because most of them are still crap.

  10. #10
    Patron Saint of Beatings WilloughbyJackson's Avatar
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    I haven't tried to sell any games... yet... but to me, if a game is good, it will sell. (Just look at the shareware market!)

    In addition, games are also a great way to learn programming in Flash. (Or any other programming language for that matter. )

    I learned Flash 4 by trying to make a game. Later, I applied a lot of the knowledge I got from the game into creating a GUI interface with lots of "neat" action. (It was done when Flash was young and I look back at it and go.. UGH.. why is everything moving?)

    It's a shame there aren't promotional/sell your product websites out there (or at least I haven't seen that many).

    I have found TONS of them when I hop links on Japanese Flash sites. Most Japanese Flashers seem to be selling a CD-ROM of some type, or a pay to download EXE of a Flash thing that they created.

    I would be really neat if someone set up a site where artists could sell CD-ROMs/download EXEs like how artist can sell T-Shirts and junk on Cafepress...

    And remember, there's always a market for naughty games.

  11. #11
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    Originally posted by WilloughbyJackson
    I would be really neat if someone set up a site where artists could sell CD-ROMs/download EXEs like how artist can sell T-Shirts and junk on Cafepress...
    that would be cool

  12. #12
    Hype over content... Squize's Avatar
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    There has been some excellent replies so far. In no real order:

    ClydeTheGlyde:"I know some other companies which make games ( you can see them on Shockwave.com ) which go for $5000 - much more into 5 or even 6 digits for exclusive games. And these Shockwave.com games are garbage."

    You see I read this and I've always be lead to believe that is the way things work, but with my recent experiences I've realised that realistic money isn't really out there, or not obtainable by me anyway
    How long does a good game take to write ? I mean a good one, not a huge AAA title like 2Kingdoms or OBJ. A month ? Two ? So how many hours a day do people spend on their games ?
    Let's take 4 hours a day, over 2 months. Knock the w/ends off for lager and real life, that's 192 hours. Break that down again to real terms, thats over 5 weeks of 9-5(ish).
    What would you expect to get paid for what is really a highly skilled job per month ? I imagine it's a lot more than what most of the big game sites are paying ( Which is a lot less than $5000 ).

    "Then don't sell for next to nothing because of course you are cheapening the whole thing."
    But that's the whole crux of my issue, are we in a position where due to the lack of places we can actually sell our games that prices are artificialy low ? Are we over a barrel with regards what we can charge ? What do you do if you've written what you think is a £1000+ worth of game but people will only pay £500 for it ? You either backdown and think it's better than nothing or it just becomes CV content.

    ant512:"So, to summarise: companies are willing to pay less than nothing for Flash games. I always thought that writing games in Flash was just a way of demonstrating your abilities to potential employers, who'd eventually get you designing tedious GUIs or banner adverts, rather than a way of making any money."

    So is it a case that Flash games should be just seen as a stepping stone to the "real" work ?
    That's a nasty story about Nintendo. They didn't even want a free game that they owned all the copyright to anyway?

    mentuat:"This moves away from the quick '30 second' flash game instead encourages the building of a community of players that feel they are an integral part of an exclusive club..."

    Mulituser has been a buzzword for a long time now, and it's the way we are all going to go, but does that mean that the 30sec game has had its day?
    I still like a quick blast or a little bit of Tetris

    tonypa:"Personal web page end of the market? You got to be kidding! You really expect someone to pay for having Flash game on their personal web page? May I seriously doubt it."

    Perhaps the guestbook analogy wasn't the best way to describe it.
    The 1coin1play thing is just an experiment, if it doesn't work then it's no biggie. It's been motivated by the lack of outlets to make money with Flash games and at the end of the day our outlook is fairly realistic. It's not going to be my living, but if I sell enough games to pay for my host and raise my profile then I think it'll be worth while.
    Won't people pay a nominal amount to have a good game on their site ? I don't know what the alternatives are for home website developers. Buying Flash and writing their own games isn't viable for the vast majority, and I don't know if other schemes bombard the end user, ie the actual games player, with advertising ?

    Like I said if it doesn't work out, then it's no big deal. I can live with looking silly.

    "You are mixing up two completely different things here. You expect someone to buy ads in your game just because its great game. Well, sad to say, but nobody is going to buy ads in some little Flash game because its not "the game" users come to play, its the site they visit."

    Just me thinking out loud. You've got a point, not the best idea in the world. I'm just trying to throw up ideas which can either be slaughtered or developed into something useful.

    mrpauly99:"who buys flash games? the online game sites (ie miniclip) obviously are the best bet for selling them but are there any other options?"

    That's the thing,it's a 100% buyers market. It seems for every mega buck game being sold people like ourselves are taking a lot less than we should, partly to get a foot in the door, and partly through lack of choice.

    "maybe we should all join forces to make the worlds definitive flash games agency."

    That really isn't a bad idea. We need a union!

    Blink:"1. more money for developers (yeah!)
    2. sites will demand much higher quality games.
    "

    Lets hope so on both counts. I think quality is the issue, seperating our games which we all hope to earn from and the free content that is everywhere.

    More comments please

    Squize.

  13. #13
    SaphuA SaphuA's Avatar
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    :)

    I'm not realy bussy with making money, but I want to do it later (school first)... So I wanna be in this threath also

    So I want to make money with my Flash games later... I'm already working on some cool 'projects' who might gonna be IT .

    Newayz,
    I was wondering what a game needs to be sold, how a fair price would come out etc...

  14. #14
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    If as you say you will not be making a living with these games I assume you have other sources of income.

    In that case ( you don't really nee money from these games ) simply set a reasonable price ( a few thousand for a good game ) and just don't sell for less. When they offer you less just say: Thank you for your interest, but no. Sooner or later if it's really good somebody may buy for what you're asking or more with customization work.

    You can raise awareness of your skills just by having games on your site, no need to give them away for next to nothing.

    Sure they can always find what they think is the same game for less, but in reality it's ubelievable what kind of crap they get.

    Just saw LeBron James official site, it has a 3 point shootout game.
    The game is so bad it's beyond comprehension. When you shoot LeBron's hands and arms look like they are behind the backboard even though he's supposed to be 22 feet away. Somebody forgot to slide basket layer down below Lebron anime layer perhaps?? The other highlights are pathetic animation, dismal gameplay ( says release at top of Lebron's jump and he doesn't even jump ). .

    Now his Marketing company has $$$$ to spend and I'm pretty sure this was $5000+ game. My dog could have done better in a couple of hours.

  15. #15
    Hype over content... Squize's Avatar
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    Some good points mate.

    "In that case ( you don't really nee money from these games ) simply set a reasonable price ( a few thousand for a good game ) and just don't sell for less. When they offer you less just say: Thank you for your interest, but no."

    It goes back to my earlier point, how many people have good games just sitting on their hardrives because of that ?
    It seems like price outweighs quality for a lot of game sites, and why not ? Why should they pay anyone say £1000+ for a quality game when they can get something for £500- ?
    They still get the visitors and therefore the advertising revenue because there are so few places for gamers to go to.

    I know of people ( It's happened to me ) who have had replies saying in effect "Yep, your game just makes our current [insert genre] game look silly, but we're not going to pay again for an improved game".

    At the end of the day these people are running a business, and although I imagine they would only want the very best games on their site, they are not going to replace exisiting games.

    "Sure they can always find what they think is the same game for less, but in reality it's ubelievable what kind of crap they get."

    But if people don't know any different, if they think that is the norm, then it's going to be acceptable. We may take the high ground and say poke your low offer for my game, but if the games playing public at large don't know they are being force feed sub standard games then it won't help any of us.
    For every Little Rocketman there are 100s of pointless Stick Man with a chainsaw games.

    There is no way anyone is going to sell a Pac Man, Asteroid, Arkanoid etc. game to one of the major game sites, no matter how good they are ( I'd like someone to prove me wrong I really would ), so it's pushing us all to be more original which is never a bad thing.
    My concern is that you produce a really neat, original game ( Perhaps even ground breaking ) but the majority of the outlets are still the same, you're still in that buyers market.

    "no need to give them away for next to nothing."

    I just want to see if there is a viable market for this approach. Is it better to try and sell a lot of games for a low return than to sell you're game as a one off exclusive ( fla et al ) and then someone else gets a constant income from advertising and re-branding ?

    I think Willoughby's packaged CD rom idea is a good one, they've been doing it with textures and samples since the dawn of CDs.
    How about a FK Games CD in the form of a co-op ? Get those games off your hardrive and onto a CD. Money's always better in your pocket than someone elses.

    Squize.

  16. #16
    for the win Asclepeos's Avatar
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    My thoughts.

    1. Games are closer to art than anything else, therefore it's value is subjective. For us it's not like "we get what we put in". Don't ever think like that with games. Games are only as valuable as their marketability. Sure some suck, but that's irrelevant to their ability to attract attention, albeit cheap. So, as much as I hate to say it divorce the ideas of quality and value. They are unrelated variables in this economy.

    2. The key advantage of flash over shockwave is it's ability to reach a MUCH bigger audience. It's viral marketability (due to size, easy distribution, versatility amongst systems) is the reason why it's such a welcomed commodity. Therefore making it into CD-ROM for me seems very inefficient and digressing to old shareware days.

    3. We are artists (even programmers) and we need to flaunt our work. That's how we attract legitimate clients that understand that our work can generate more attention (and a wider audience) than retro-chic-techy-martha stewart designs.

    PS do not work for nintendo unless it's for a high pay programming job. also in IE a highlighted =
    Last edited by Asclepeos; 07-24-2003 at 05:59 PM.

  17. #17
    Senior Member tonypa's Avatar
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    Actually I think (and I dont make any money with Flash, I only do games because I like to make them) its not that wise to create great game, spend lots of time and effort to make it perfect and then try to sell it. Most money in Flash games goes from orders, someone orders you to create game for their site and as always with working with customers, they basically decide what they want. If they have budjet of 500$ for the game then it doesnt matter how great/crap game you make for them. You still get that 500$. If they are happy then everyone are happy. Only thing that might matter is that your next customer probably checks games before he orders from you and if your last game is really crap, then they might look for someone else.

    "Let's take 4 hours a day, over 2 months. Knock the w/ends off for lager and real life, that's 192 hours. Break that down again to real terms, thats over 5 weeks of 9-5(ish). What would you expect to get paid for what is really a highly skilled job per month ? I imagine it's a lot more than what most of the big game sites are paying ( Which is a lot less than $5000 )."

    I dont think in the end its sold to only one site. Its sold to 10-15 similar sites. Lets take for example company like
    http://www.popcap.com/ or http://www.gamehouse.com/
    Anywhere you look, you see their games around. And as they are already known to make solid games, their new games are also better accepted. I have no idea if they make their games in the house or buy the ideas up from guys from the street. And it doesnt matter that much, guy from the street never sells his game even if he has great game.

  18. #18
    Vox adityadennis's Avatar
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    I have to goto college in a year, and earlier I was looking at art colleges with flash and director, but lately I've been looking more at like c++ etc... so yeah, the flash job market sucks. It's probably because so many people know flash and now that flash is everywhere, it's not as cool anymore. Earlier it used to be a novelty, and people like nike and cartoon network had it. Newgrounds proves how many people have it now.
    P.S. Squize: Although I doubt asteriods will work on websites, Something customizable like an extremely fancy quiz engine will. The only thing remaining, like was said before, would be the price, cause personal web page people will definitely not like paying for stuff.Something else which actually already exists (I think): Customizable buttons/menus.
    Oh BTW, I remember Jobe had said that he sells stuff for like 20000+ ,but come on, he's written the official game book for flash. He's kinda high-profile.
    Another BTW: "New Masters of Flash" by Friends of Ed shows some really cool stuff done in Flash. You can just visit the www.friendsofed.com site and download the files so you wont have to buy the $60 book.
    :]

  19. #19
    Yes we can tomsamson's Avatar
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    hey there fellas,long time no see,anyho,just wanted to drop in and spend my two cents while i´m on a night shift:
    i pretty much agree with mentuat,if the game is top notch,stands above others and is remarkably different from all which have been there before (maybe because it has a vast multiplayer world or just a really creative powerup which is fun to play around with for hours),it can be sold for a good price (1000-5000$).
    Then again,other opinions from previous posts are right,in a way,too,flash has evolved,right now it is the mass market teenage pc frak boy´s toy (sexual pun not intended),there are thousands of guys in the age of 13-19 who try to make flash games,so standing out with excellent stuff is even more important if one wants to sell his stuff for a fine price.
    and yep,exclusive development for a company like nike surely might give you more bucks in return,then again you have to create what the client wants and not just built a game as you think it´d kick a**.
    Besides that a company like nike won´t give a game job to "bobdoesn´tknowwhattodoandclaimstobeacoder" but instead to a company with a brand,image and impressive portfolio,so it won´t hurt to create some wicked tuff,maybe sell it for a low price but get a strong portfolio going..

  20. #20
    ism BlinkOk's Avatar
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    hey tony, did you read the article i posted?
    http://www.wired.com/news/games/0,21....html/wn_ascii
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