So, how much is a game worth ?

[Squize]

ant512:"In summary, I'd suggest that anyone who does release games for free is effectively undercutting the commercial market."

Totally. It goes back to one of my main points regard genre's being done to the point of saturation, and the vast majority of those games have been done for free.

I've seen it before on the board where someone has posted a "I want this game, I can't pay atm but I may be able to one day", and the number of people who have jumped in and offered just to do it for free is unreal.
Or the every now and again post of "I want to buy content for $100". The poster usually gets slaughtered for quoting such a low amount, but you'd be suprised how many people put games forward for that figure.

Thats what kills it for everyone, that and people really undercutting to win a bid to get a foot in the door.

But what can you do ? You can't really knock someone for trying to sort themselves out. And for everyone here with bills to pay there are two people who are still at school ( Not that age has anything to do with ability, but a $100 goes a lot further when you're in school then when you've got rent to pay ).

We are always going to be in a strange market place, where quality isn't the primary factor. Perhaps the field isn't mature enough yet, like the really old days of the 8bit games where cassette covers were photocopies and everything was just an arcade clone. The main difference now being that the world and his dog can do a Flash game.

Paul, you going to start the "Life and Times of a Flash games developer" ?

Flecko:"Well, if all that absurdly mediocre "proffessional" work brings in $5000 a game, I'd say a hell of a lot."
Yeah, but for the most part mate it doesn't. Out of everyone whose posted to this thread, how many have made $5000 for a game done freelance ?
How many have made more than a £1000 ? Not many. I don't mean that as a slight to anyones talents, far from it, more a bitc'h about the current situation.

Squize.

[iopred]

Okies..

Firstly MiniClip.. They make money by selling full versions of theyre games. Rocketman has a free version on MiniClip, then people actually buy the full version which I get %60 of. I beleive they also have a pay per play.. but thats a REALLY small ammount of money from what I have heard. And Finally I beleive they may also have a flat price which they buy some games outright. Not sure of the prices

Secondly. I have sold my games for reasonable ammounts of money, the market is good, but freelancing is hard. The only way is to get into web portals such as miniclip/shockwave. Shockwave comes up alot, but it is a good revenue stream when ur in. Only problem is they only talk to companies, not freelancers.

[WilloughbyJackson]

Hello again,

I am becoming more and more convinced that if we all keep brainstorming, I'm sure we could come up with some unique, new way to present games on the web...

Something people would go to...

Unfortunately, the power supply on my computer decided to fry my motherboard when I plugged it in at my new place (yes, it was on a power strip), and so I've lost a few of the things I was playing around with, and can't really work on anything new...

Remember kids, DO NOT PACK THE BLANK CDs FIRST WHEN MOVING. MAKE A BACK UP OF EVERYTHING BEFORE YOU GO...

(I have everything else backed up though, which is why I am not crying in the corner right now...)

EDIT
Squize spoketh:

ant512:"In summary, I'd suggest that anyone who does release games for free is effectively undercutting the commercial market."

Totally. It goes back to one of my main points regard genre's being done to the point of saturation, and the vast majority of those games have been done for free.

Then I say we follow the example of Mathew Carter.

He's a type designer who's been around for many years, and was one of the first digital type designers.

To quote my website (I did a research report on him in school...):

Many believe that type design is a dying industry. With the technology available today, anyone can easily create digital fonts, although the quality of these fonts is questionable.

When asked about this, Matthew Carter compared the type design industry to the fashion industry. People do not visit boutiques to get clothes because they do not have any; they go because they want something special. The fashion industry is based on this idea, and Carter thinks the type design industry should work the same way.

-pXw

[Ryaareet]

I just want you all to know that there is hope and there is work out there if you look in the right places.....

I have been working on flash as a hobby for around 2 years. I recently started work (freelance) for a major website. The money isnt going to make me rich (£277/game) but its a start. It also gives me a platform on which to stand to shout my name even louder.

Dont give up. It may take time but if you are good enough then it will happen.

[mentuat]

just a few positve things to add from my experience, I agree most with the point about having contacts being the most important - but cold-calling can be effective if you have the right experience to offer. My regular flash game/application freelance work comes from from two companies that use me mainly because they trust me to get the job done and I know what the client expects rather than an extraordinary design talent. Being a good comunicator and able to stick to deadlines is just as important as a fancy portfolio (which is taken for granted these days) - use your fun and experimental games to show what you can do then demonstrate you can stick to a brief, deal with awkward clients and deliver on time, perhaps on a sample project for free or low cost, keep out of your mind that you are working for free/cheap for a while and remember you are trying to build up trust to begin with.

Once you've built up a relationship with the agency/client try and enter proposals for projects going round - it'll take a few goes to get the pitch (and price!) right and many propsals will be rejected, but find out why and try again next time (and never say you can do something you can't, it will bite you on the ass later and honesty will be appreciated) - persistence, professionalism and creativity will pay off in the end. At present I'm in the fortunate postion to pick and choose work because I just don't the time to do it all, it's not an idle boast and am under no illusions it will remain that way but it is an indication of a hell lot of effort and being flexable paying off over period of time (and the industry picking up!)

[BlinkOk]

hey mentuat. if your picking and choosing work right now why not toss some of the crumbs our way. if you don't wanna do it then i'm sure there are a few very competent people here who could and i don't think they would begrudge a commission for your efforts.

[mentuat]

hey mentuat. if your picking and choosing work right now why not toss some of the crumbs our way. if you don't wanna do it then i'm sure there are a few very competent people here who could and i don't think they would begrudge a commission for your efforts.

I have recommended this board before not specific people (from here anyway), twice before actually, once to a guy that wanted a lot of simple games quickly (but cheaply) and then again to a guy that wanted flash related site stuff, I don't know if they ever followed up on it, I don't recall the first guy ever posting his request though. Unfortunately I don't actually know any of you! I wouldn't recommend anyone based on a portfolio and it's doubtful based on previous experience (i've only manged to a get a couple of friends work before) whether they would then follow up on it (most agencies do have a range of freelancers, if one rejects a brief or cannot do it they have many more on their books who no doubt will) having said that if you are in London, over 18, can program, design and animate well and quickly, pm me or post here - if you can before before tomorrow (friday) coz I'm meeting up with some guys from an agency for a drink and will bring it up, they're nice people and would be able to offer some sort of advice if nothing else, they said they are snowed under so could be a good time to bring it up.

[Ryaareet]

Maybe this is the way to go.....

I myself work for one company in particular although I have just started. If i got to the point where I had too much work to cope with then I wouldn't mind handing it down the line (for a cut obviously). If the quality was up to scratch then why not. When your dealing with people you have never met and live half way around the world you have to have a certain amount of trust. lets face it, your never going to get paid up front. Although people have to realise that it isnt as simple as creating a game and expecting it to be accepted straight away. There is alot of finishing touches that take place once (you think) the game is finished.

Maybe we should have some kind of Dedicated Flash Developer Group where people who are seriously looking for Jobs however small can meet and discuss. Its just a thought. I myself have already taken one person on board to help out with the visual side of things. Its only pocket money, but for sitting at a computer (which he does anyway) its not bad. When I have a project on the go I am always looking for help but tend to get replies along the lines of...

" Hey, Im not a graphics artist or coder but I have some great ideas for games!"

Thats no good to me....I have never received one decent reply. Thats why we need a pool of decent talent to dip into.

[jonmack]

Some great points being raised here, this is a great thread.

I'm not any sort of professional coder/designer. I make little games in flash becasue i enjoy playing games, and the challenge of actaully creating a game of my own is appealing to me. I do it for fun. But I was wondering if those of you here who do this for a living could answer a few questions.

It's kind of in the same area of as ryaareet and mentuat are currently bringing up. Big production games like the Quakes and Warcrafts of this world are done by huge teams, and I was wondering if flash games are done in ( albeit probably much smaller ) teams? I understand that flash games are not going to be as powerful of the 3D games out there, it's not a great comparison, but I get the impression that a lot of you do things on your own. Or at the least just having the graphics done by somebody else. Is it not a viable option to be a part of a "flash game company", with a main coder, a graphics person, a level and game idea creator.. etc? Do many teams exist? Or is it fairly split between freelance individuals, and "teams"?

Not that I'm looking into a career in this, but I would be interested to know how it works. Any insight would be appreciated,

Cheers.

[luxregina]

Originally posted by jonmack
(...) but I get the impression that a lot of you do things on your own. (...) Is it not a viable option to be a part of a "flash game company", with a main coder, a graphics person, a level and game idea creator.. etc? (...)

From my experience it is difficult to gather a team when it is a free, non paid project, specially on a site like this one, where ages, locations, jobs etc are so different
It certainly work, but it is exremely skilled to keep people motivated for long term project (motivated or available, since it is done for free, people are naturally switching their priorities to more interesting projects, school, jobs etc ...)
Of course in case a game is being developped for money, it is different, a team organization is much better ; but then we fall back to the first point : is it possible to make enough money for all the team on the flash game market ? the more personns will be working on the project, the less rentability you will have

Another interesting point is that the configuration of the Flash game-maker crowd remind me a lot the game-maker community one decade ago, where a single talent could come up with a great game, and be really successfull with it : it is also motivating to still have a bit of that dream, the " it is all in my hands " that we lost with the professionalization of game making

<shameless promotion>Though, i'm still looking for a good OOP coder for my game, Two kingdoms (http://grafikdezign.free.fr/game/game.htm)</shameless promotion>

[mentuat]

Or at the least just having the graphics done by somebody else. Is it not a viable option to be a part of a "flash game company", with a main coder, a graphics person, a level and game idea creator.. etc? Do many teams exist? Or is it fairly split between freelance individuals, and "teams"?

my day job (for want of a better phrase) is working within a team on (mainly) multiplayer flash game projects 3 months+. Rather than specific job roles each guy (yup, all guys!) has a range of skills that compliment each other - thats the plan anyway! Whether it's unusual or not to have team like this in a big company I don't know - it's the first I've come across.

[Ryaareet]

Ah the days of my Amiga....public domain software...Floppy disks full of soundtracker samples. I loved it and was sad to see it all disappear when the Amiga went out of fashion. Thats why I love Flash and the PC. Its all coming back just like it used to be.

Back then I used to do all my own stuff. Music, Visuals and Audio. But how many of my projects ended up unfinished!!!

No doubt a lot of games come from individuals working in their bedroom. Thats how I started. Generally speaking if I did them all myself I would end up with a ton of half finished projects that weren't quite up to the standard I would have liked.

Ive had quite alot of success with my flash games so far. But when it comes down to it I just havent got the time to do everything myself. Im in a lucky situation where I have gone part time as I am making a half decent living from Flash as a freelancer but i still need help in the form of a freind of mine who is also a graphic artist (unemployed).

If you do start a flash development team you are going to have to do it with a minimum of return to begin with. Its the only way you are going to get yourself noticed. Find every flash forum on the net there is and Submit, Submit, Submit. Get a website together to showcase your work. Even if its a simple homepage at least your out there attracting attention. Thats all I did. You will be suprised how many firms use these forums to scout for potential talent. Keep at it.

[tonypa]

Originally posted by jonmack
Big production games like the Quakes and Warcrafts of this world are done by huge teams, and I was wondering if flash games are done in ( albeit probably much smaller ) teams?

If I remember it correctly, original Doom and Quake were not published by some big computer game company, they were done by small group of talented people.

Sadly, 10 years later they are still using exactly same ideas

[DELETED_jtnw]

i recently was on a team (non paid project) and it didnt work well at all, it was poorly orginized, there were many fights between different members because they wernt doing anything. the group even broke up a couple of times, then got back together. but bottom line in my opinion, it dosent work

[WilloughbyJackson]

I've been involved in a few group projects in school which have worked well and also have completely failed.

Generally, the ones that worked well had a dynamic leader. Someone who made decisions, solved arguements, etc..etc...

Also, the ones that worked had a LOT of preplanning involved to think of as many elements, from as many angles before the graphics and programming even started. It also (for us) set up a common vision/goal we all could work towards.

[Ryaareet]

Reply to

JTNW: It doesnt work with poor co-ordination maybe. But thats all part of the learning process. Were they mates of yours? Professionals? Obviously who you pick is a major factor. I would suggest starting out on your own. get a couple of projects off the ground. Get noticed. Then start employing outside talent part time, as and when needed. It works for me. And Im no business man! Its not going to be easy. But it can pay off. Trust me. Its no good putting a negative slant on a dream that many people have. Always be positive even if after two years of solid work nothing has come of it. (thats how long it took me, from scratch, to learn Flash and get my first real contract. I had sold games before that to a lesser degree).

Just like this one, there are number of excellent sites out there to submit your work. So whether your a beginner or a professional I would always recommend using them. Whats more its free bandwidth.

To all the newbies out there one peice of advice I would give is: Dont get your copy of Flash and try to design the Next Lara Croft...it isnt going to happen. Learn the Basics. Ive lost count of the number of threads asking how to make a game.

[DELETED_jtnw]

ok i guess i was being too negative to people who are planning a group, just make sure it is VERY orginized, again an example from my group, some people didnt even know what kind of game it was

[Squize]

This thread just seems to be getting better all the time with some fantastic, open, input by people.

Ryaareet, it's kinda ironic about your Amiga reference 'cause I only mentioned it to PercyPea the other day.
For everyone ( Which I guess is nearly everyone ) who wasn't around in the Amiga scene days, it was just an amazing explosion of talent. It was the move from one person doing everything, the good old backroom coder days of 8-bit, to small demo teams. A coder, artist and musician.
If a good artist and/or musican came to the board he could have his pick of projects. I think most of us would bite their arms off to have them on board. Flash games now require the extra skills and need more than just an all-rounder to move them to the next level.
I don't know how much time you guys spend on graphix / sound, but when working under a tight deadline it's never enough. That time could be spent tightening the code, or better yet beta testing.
I know DayDream works with a lot of people here, but if a couple more guys with the same talents joined the board it would be good for everyone.

jtnw group working does work, even on a mates working together for free basis. I find you just need someone to slip into the leader role and everyone to accept that, otherwise you will have clashes.
I was lucky with the original shoah thing on the Amiga 'cause we all helped on each others projects and none of us were afraid to say when something was crap. You need that honesty to produce good work.

<cheeky self promo>mentuat I'm ( Well ) over 18 and live in Essex, that count ? pm me babe if you want to see what I've produced in the past 8-9 weeks</cheeky self promo>. Everyone else, out of interest, I will be releasing the whole "Majestic Trilogy" to the board as soon as the php stuff is sorted. At the very least you get 3 new games to play

Squize.

[clot]

Ok, I'll bite.

Yeah I think people selling games for a very low price are hurting the industry.

That said, I know that if you are putting out a quality product (and by that I mean around 5% of the Flash games out there), you can make even better money than those people selling themselves short.

I'm willing to bet that many games sold for a rediculously low amount are worth about as much.

Companies try to differentiate themselves from competitors and don't look to the flock for inspiration. They want professional-quality and will pay a premium to get it because not everyone can do it.

[DELETED_jtnw]

Originally posted by Squize
jtnw group working does work, even on a mates working together for free basis. I find you just need someone to slip into the leader role and everyone to accept that, otherwise you will have clashes.
I was lucky with the original shoah thing on the Amiga 'cause we all helped on each others projects and none of us were afraid to say when something was crap. You need that honesty to produce good work.

we had 2 leaders, one of them didnt even have a computer