US leads production per worker

[TallGuyLittleCar]

work smarter not harder.

[Visionray]

Originally posted by hurricaneone
One of the primary contributing factors to my leaving the US was the complete lack of opportunity to advance in any given position, unless you were the guy burning the veritable midnight oil.

If that's what you have to do to get 'noticed' in US business, if that's what you have to do to progress onto 'middle management' so you can make a house-buying, car-payment-supporting, family-feeding salary, then they can have it. Have it all.

Our experiences were obviously different.

Yea that's really unfair. To have to work hard in order to move up in the world. Too bad our society isn't set up so that average lazy Joe get's to be CEO of whatever company he wants. I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. I've lived here my whole life and there are opportunities for advancement in every field all around me. To say there is no opportunity sounds like your own personal problem, and doesn't apply to everyone living in the U.S. Where were you living...the middle of Kansas?

[hurricaneone]

Originally posted by Visionray
Yea that's really unfair. To have to work hard in order to move up in the world. Too bad our society isn't set up so that average lazy Joe get's to be CEO of whatever company he wants. I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. I've lived here my whole life and there are opportunities for advancement in every field all around me. To say there is no opportunity sounds like your own personal problem, and doesn't apply to everyone living in the U.S. Where were you living...the middle of Kansas?

Typical.

Have a go, simply because somebody actually does not want to bust their nuts 24/7 for some company in the most extreme way possible. I guess it's not possible to make decent enough impression 9-6, everyone who wants to advance must do the 9-9 (or more).

With free pizza (mebbe) - yay.

Does it not occur to you drones that there is a life out there, and by sinking your every waking hour into that maudlin existence you call work, you are missing out on what we were intended to do - have fun?

Seems that a lot of people have forgotten to have fun.

And I'll add this, just in case you think it was my personal work ethic that was at fault. As soon as I got back to the UK, I was hired within a month, stayed with the company for over three years and ended up managing the team that I was hired to be a part of.

Central Philadelphia - Kansas, haha, like anyone would live there.

[gerbick]

'cane, I understand what you're saying. But I can't help but disagree. With the fact that you have so many people going for the same job and/or level, you have to work that much harder to get ahead.

if you want competition and long hours, try Japan. After living there for 2 years, the US is a cakewalk.

[iForgotMyPassword]

belgium should find a way of thanking me for my hard work

tiny country like us i feel good knowing we are the hardest workers in europe

However, American employees also work longer hours, and three European countries -- Norway, France and Belgium -- beat the Americans in productivity per hour, the International Labor Organization said in its new issue of Key Indicators of the Labor Market.

[Visionray]

Typical.

Have a go, simply because somebody actually does not want to bust their nuts 24/7 for some company in the most extreme way possible. I guess it's not possible to make decent enough impression 9-6, everyone who wants to advance must do the 9-9 (or more).

Wow, again, sounds like a personal problem you encountered, not being able to advance within your particular company. Maybe it was the wrong company to work for. But I don't know a single person who has had to work overtime soley in order to advance in the service sector. As someone said earlier, most people who work overtime in the US are the ones making over 100,000 a year. They work for that money and it's the life they chose.

Hint: Why not start your own company? Then you don't have to worry about working for the man and getting promoted.



Does it not occur to you drones that there is a life out there, and by sinking your every waking hour into that maudlin existence you call work, you are missing out on what we were intended to do - have fun?

Some of us drones actually love what we do for a living. I wouldn't give my job up for the world. I love it and it's what I persued directly out of college. It's a shame for you that you made the mistake of not pursuing a career in the U.S. that you are passionate about - something that you don't mind going to every day.

I work, I have fun, I have fun at work and I have fun at home.

And I'll add this, just in case you think it was my personal work ethic that was at fault. As soon as I got back to the UK, I was hired within a month, stayed with the company for over three years and ended up managing the team that I was hired to be a part of.

Ok, that's fantastic. Should we now assume that in the U.S. you can't advance in your career but if you move to the UK you're guaranteed promotion? Your argument doesn't apply to the vast majority of Americans.

You had a bad experience in America. Therefore the whole system must be corrupt. Whatever. What about your country...Brazil? Seems last time I checked the gap between rich and the overworked poor was still one of the widest in the western world.

[hurricaneone]

Originally posted by gerbick
'cane, I understand what you're saying. But I can't help but disagree. With the fact that you have so many people going for the same job and/or level, you have to work that much harder to get ahead.

if you want competition and long hours, try Japan. After living there for 2 years, the US is a cakewalk.

So what happens to your kids? And their kids?

In the end, the sharp end will be so far out there, that you'll have to invent a 25th hour of the day to stay in the office to impress the disinterested manager and over-eager executive that you really are worth the promtion.

What an ugly game.

Though I do agree, although I have no personal experience with Japan, the wife's family is Japanese and a lot of Brazilian Japanese head over there to do comparaticely well-paid menial stuff - stuff that your average native Japanese worker simply does not want to do, they're so hell bent on being a salary guy.

[iForgotMyPassword]

Originally posted by hurricaneone
So what happens to your kids? And their kids?

In the end, the sharp end will be so far out there, that you'll have to invent a 25th hour of the day to stay in the office to impress the disinterested manager and over-eager executive that you really are worth the promtion.

What an ugly game.

Though I do agree, although I have no personal experience with Japan, the wife's family is Japanese and a lot of Braialian Japanese head over there to do comparaticely well-paid menial stuff - stuff that your average native Japanese worker simply does not want to do, they're so hell bent on being a salary guy.

i'm with hurricane one this one...

i am not a person who falls in favor with a lot of the bosses... not because i don't do my job... but because i don't seem "interested" enough in the company or whatever... god guys i'm just moving bags of cement... they expect me to sit at the same table as the others... if you sit at a table with your "friends" you will be disfavored...

I don't know about working Longer hours... i'm sorry i have a life i don't want to work overtime.... work done i'm off... but that doesn't mean i don't work as hard or i don't come in on time....

no sometimes i just refuse to suck up. and that has gotten me sacked on plenty of occasions... but of course not for those reasons....

[gerbick]

my kids? well taken care of mate. I play just as much as I work. I don't get the vacation like an European person, but I take about 5 weeks a year off - not contingent weeks though.

hard work is what gets you ahead. fanatical overworking will get you dead.

I know the difference. and I enjoy my job. and I'm planning way ahead... retirement soon. just running out places to travel too. Brasil perhaps?

working right now actually.

[scdfred]

Originally posted by Hellsbellboy
and the other 1/3 is in the Fish and chip shops..


I have to wonder how many hours Americans REALLY DO work.. i know alot 'say' 50 hours and junk like that.. but people that i work with take 2 hour lunches.. count the time they commute to work.. lots of coffee breaks... etc etc.

I work over 40 hours a week. Last week I worked 53 hours. I get no lunch break. If I take a break and a customer comes in, my break is over. I dont include the commute in that time. Those 53 hours are the hours I was clocked in.

[hurricaneone]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Visionray
[B]Wow, again, sounds like a personal problem you encountered, not being able to advance within your particular company. Maybe it was the wrong company to work for. But I don't know a single person who has had to work overtime soley in order to advance in the service sector. As someone said earlier, most people who work overtime in the US are the ones making over 100,000 a year. They work for that money and it's the life they chose.

You, my friend, are so catching the wrong end of the stick, you risk poking yourself in your own eye. For want of not mentioning the companies I did work for, I can categorically state that I did not work in 'the service sector'. Rather, I was working in various computer-related and editorial departments, areas closely related to my degree

Some of us drones actually love what we do for a living. I wouldn't give my job up for the world. I love it and it's what I persued directly out of college. It's a shame for you that you made the mistake of not pursuing a career in the U.S. that you are passionate about - something that you don't mind going to every day.

I work, I have fun, I have fun at work and I have fun at home.

Are you so short-sighted to think that everyone is as happy as you are at their place of employment. Grab another cup of joe, buddy - it's time to wake up.

Ok, that's fantastic. Should we now assume that in the U.S. you can't advance in your career but if you move to the UK you're guaranteed promotion? Your argument doesn't apply to the vast majority of Americans.

You had a bad experience in America. Therefore the whole system must be corrupt. Whatever. What about your country...Brazil? Seems last time I checked the gap between rich and the overworked poor was still one of the widest in the western world.

I ask you to assume nothing. I am living, breathing proof that a college degree and a relatively decent work ethic is no assurance that you will be able to have a 3 bedroom, two car, one-holiday American 'dream'

And I'm English, not Brazilian. I have lived here for 3 years and some with my Brazilian wife.

Hint: Why not start your own company? Then you don't have to worry about working for the man and getting promoted.

And here I sit, in my own company, beholden to no one, still working 15hr days. Well, sometimes anyway, but at least it's for me and not for some other richard to reap the majority of the benefit.

[Visionray]

Are you so short-sighted to think that everyone is as happy as you are at their place of employment. Grab another cup of joe, buddy - it's time to wake up.


I'm merely stating the fact that many people here do love their jobs, and that just because you weren't happy, doesn't mean everyone isn't. Are YOU so short sighted as to think that everyone is as disgruntled as you are? It goes both ways.

And the only people to blame for those who hate their jobs are those people themselves. The world is what you make it and if you hate your dead end job that is your own fault, not society.

And no, I don't drink Joe, I drink Beer - on the job.

[hurricaneone]

Originally posted by Visionray
Are you so short-sighted to think that everyone is as happy as you are at their place of employment. Grab another cup of joe, buddy - it's time to wake up.


I'm merely stating the fact that many people here do love their jobs, and that just because you weren't happy, doesn't mean everyone isn't. Are YOU so short sighted as to think that everyone is as disgruntled as you are? It goes both ways.

And the only people to blame for those who hate their jobs are those people themselves. The world is what you make it and if you hate your dead end job that is your own fault, not society.

And no, I don't drink Joe, I drink Beer - on the job.

I never said that I hated what I did - I quite enjoyed it actually, and the people I worked with (not for) were fine as well. Sure, maybe I had some lousy managers, maybe that was some bad luck, but I can't put it all down to that.

I may have come off as disgruntled in this thread, but I was by no means was I off to the local gun shop to get even with boss. I simply made more effort and that effort was not always recognized, so I was unhappy. I still showed up to work the next day without the Peacemaker.

But if, as you say, the people who hate their work only have themselves to blame, then I will have to patently disagree. There are plenty of circumstance beyond an employee's control which can put them in a posotion of not enjoying their work or workplace, and for this, one should not assume 'it's their fault'.

You drink beer on the job? Are you sure you're in the US? I drink beer on occassion too, but then again, what am I gonna do? Fire myself?

[Hellsbellboy]

sure it's their fault.. it's a relatively free country as far as jobs go... if you don't like it.. then vote with your feet.. You make oppertunities.. if your waiting for them to fall into your lap then you stand the risk of waiting a long long time. You did come off as disgruanlted.. I don't know why cause your not specific about it.. and we all can post all day exceptions to the rules.. but i stand by my statement.. although people claim to work alot of hours.. most people still work 8 hours or less a week.. and those that work more do so for their own reasons.. Gerbick said it best, work smarter not hader.. but then like just about everything, that doesn't apply to all things. Some jobs you have to be there for whatever reason..

[Visionray]

Originally posted by hurricaneone


You drink beer on the job? Are you sure you're in the US? I drink beer on occassion too, but then again, what am I gonna do? Fire myself?

Yes, I work as a beer taste tester.
No just kidding, but my job allows me to spend half of my hours working remotely from home, so yes occasionally I am WWD (working while drunk). But I still put in the hours, and overtime if I have extra work.


But if, as you say, the people who hate their work only have themselves to blame, then I will have to patently disagree. There are plenty of circumstance beyond an employee's control which can put them in a posotion of not enjoying their work or workplace, and for this, one should not assume 'it's their fault'.

Well, I disagree because people have to option to do whatever they want. Some people have more options available to them based on how hard they have worked or how lucky they are. I understand a lot of jobs can be crap, and I've had a lot of really bad jobs, but what I don't understand is why people stay with their crap jobs when they have the opportunity to look elsewhere for a better job.

For those that don't have the opportunity, or the credentials, or the willpower, then I can only blame them and the choices they made that got them where they are. Stuck in a dead-end job with an A-hole boss? Quit. Yes, it's that easy. You only live once, why settle for a miserable existence?

Nowadays, people simply can't expect that because you have a college degree, you are guaranteed a good job with good advancement opportunities. It depends on how hard you work to get ahead, what the competition is, and especially WHO you know in the industry. You have to get up and network with people with persistence to get the job that will make you happy. Those who sit on their asses and expect a job because they have a degree...well I don't feel sorry for them at all.

[hurricaneone]

HBB and VR, it's well and good that you say 'vote with your feet' and 'people have an option to do whatever they want', but it just isn't true.

People get hooked up with a fairly decent job, get married, get a mortgage and 10 years later, they're still doing the same old drudge. Now, you're going to tell me that this person is not entitled to feel like a change - of course not. But can they just pack it in and go off on the great job hunt. You know as well as I do that this is a financial impossibility. Living from check to check to make ends meet, you just can't. So the economy which makes you work in the first place, ends up being the same economy that traps you into the same position you've had for 10, 20, 3o years. And what happens over this time if you get a new boss who is a complete ****** and makes your life a living hell. Is that the workers fault too? Again, pretty obvious that it's not.

So I'd never say never and qualify your answers, rather than going 'whole hog' on the 'it's their fault' bandwagon.

And that thing about 'who you know'. That is the biggest kicker of 'em all, as it really negates the need to have a degree or quite frankly, any intelligence at all. Simply because you have won the 'Association Lottery' and your acquantainces (or those of your family) can get you a cushy little 100K/yr pen-pushing position at The Friends & Family Enterprise. Is that fair? Sure it is - as long as you're the one getting the prime position.

[TallGuyLittleCar]

Originally posted by hurricaneone
get hooked up with a fairly decent job, get married, get a mortgage and 10 years later, they're still doing the same old drudge. Now, you're going to tell me that this person is not entitled to feel like a change - of course not. But can they just pack it in and go off on the great job hunt. You know as well as I do that this is a financial impossibility. Living from check to check to make ends meet, you just can't.

well it seems to me if you're married, one of the parents can go back to school and get a masters degree and then doctorate. That should be able to net them a good salary. assuming the have gotten degrees and skills in something that is desireable.

Living from check to check? must people really do that to themselves.

Do you really need to make car payments. no
do you really need to have cable. no
really need a dvd player. no
etc. etc. etc.

it really comes down to, must see t.v. or this god damned java manual!

[gerbick]

bah, nepatism happens in all countries. thus the pressure to work harder if you don't have those "connections" like the silver spoon-fed crowd.

[Visionray]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by hurricaneone


People get hooked up with a fairly decent job, get married, get a mortgage and 10 years later, they're still doing the same old drudge. Now, you're going to tell me that this person is not entitled to feel like a change - of course not. But can they just pack it in and go off on the great job hunt. You know as well as I do that this is a financial impossibility.

It depends. I know many people with families, in their late 30's early 40's who have packed it in and made sweeping career changes, and they have made it work. Sure, they have to weather the storm, but if you have the drive and motivation, then it can happen and you can be successful. One thing is for sure, if you don't come from a rich family, you aren't going to get anywhere in the U.S. unless you take risk.

And what happens over this time if you get a new boss who is a complete ****** and makes your life a living hell. Is that the workers fault too? Again, pretty obvious that it's not.

It both the worker's fault and the employer's fault. It's the employer's fault for being such a stiff jackass, and it's the workers fault for staying in a position they loath and have no control over.

Case in point, my best friend Steve moved down to DC here a year ago, with NO money. Not a dime. He had a bachelor's degree. He got a job as an advertising assistent and absolutley hated it, and made $25,000 a year. He would complain so much about his job that one night we sat down and I told him not to go into work the next day. So he didn't, and two weeks later after hard work and searching, he found a better job and now likes it and makes $40,000. Had he not taken the risk, he'd still be at his dead-end job.


And that thing about 'who you know'. That is the biggest kicker of 'em all, as it really negates the need to have a degree or quite frankly, any intelligence at all. Simply because you have won the 'Association Lottery' and your acquantainces (or those of your family) can get you a cushy little 100K/yr pen-pushing position at The Friends & Family Enterprise. Is that fair? Sure it is - as long as you're the one getting the prime position.

Sure a lot of people get their jobs by simply knowing the right people, and that may be their only qualification. But that isn't always the case when people say "it's who you know not what you know". For example, my current job I got because someone who worked there taught a course I took. Since I worked very hard in the class, afterwards we got to talking and he mentioned there was an opening. So, does that make me a lucky guy with a rich daddy who got his job? No, it means instead of simply sliding by and doing the standard, I worked hard and made an important contact because of my work, which got me a job. So just because you know someone, it doesn't mean you aren't qualified. It might mean instead of playing Nintendo all day, you spent time networking with people in order to break in.

So I'm not sure what you are arguing for. THe US is a free country with a lot of competition and not everyone is going to be a winner. The only alternative to this system is to start running it like North Korea or the former Soviet Union, where everyone has a job, everyone get's paid a simliar amount, and nobody get's to try anything else.

[hurricaneone]

Originally posted by Visionray
So I'm not sure what you are arguing for. THe US is a free country with a lot of competition and not everyone is going to be a winner. The only alternative to this system is to start running it like North Korea or the former Soviet Union, where everyone has a job, everyone get's paid a simliar amount, and nobody get's to try anything else.

I argue the case for the person who is, unlike yourself it seems, not the 'winner', the person who has not got the job they want, not got the life they want, yet still - has all the qualities that you or I possess, but has either missed that lucky break, or has come up short in their empowering, all-conquering level of personal ambition - the quality that you seem to rate so highly.

Why should making a decent living be prerequisite to the possession of all-consuming ambition? Is that what society is all boiling down to?

I remember a Seinfeld episode where they wondered about what percentage of the population is worth dating. They came to a figure of about 5%. I would estimate that this is the same percentage of people who are happy with life, and are not looking for immediate change. That leaves the vast majority of us perhaps unhappy, certainly looking for something else, something better. Whether you agree or not with 5% is OK, but I would assume you'll agree that in your current situation, you are in a priviledged minority.

It seems to me that your statements and opinions are coming from a very typically American viewpoint of 'as long as I'm alright, and the other guy is not, then the other guy must have some sort of personal problem'. Of course, this attitude surely does protect the thin veneer of your perfect outlook, blaming the other guy for their own short comings, but in all honesty, in my position looking from the outside in, it comes off as a narrow-minded viewpoint that bears little resemblance to how people in society should regard others.

And seriously, if you really believe that there is no middle ground between the corporate world of the US, the cooperative world of the Former Soviet Union and the dictatorial world of N. Korea, then there's probably not much hope for any middle ground in this discussion.