Where has the streaming gone?

[murraymint]

Hi,

I have started this thread after looking at rollinr37's game :

http://www.flashkit.com/board/showth...hreadid=489844

It is apparent to me after looking at a few games over the last couple of days that developers appear to be snubbing the modem community in favour of pursuing their dreams of fancy bitmaps and minute long songs.

Flash files of 2 meg + . That's crazy!!??

When Flash appeared long ago, way before I could type, it strengths were it's abilities to create tiny file sizes and stream it's data.

This meant even if you had to wait for games to load, creative developers could install mini loading games (remember 'invader load' on the spectrum..), preloaders or instructions.

I know from experience creating preloaders is a time consuming activity, but surely this is what web games are about? Preloaders can help explain the game, build excitement and generally encourage people to hang around long enough for it to load.

Too often a game takes 5 minutes to load, and it's appaling. I'm sure people will stop bothering to look at them??? Only good screenshots and a preloader keep me waiting these days.

In summary, are devlopers now focussing on broadband because 'some people' have it? Has the excitment of at last being able to put huge bitmaps into files got too much? Are we destined to see more and more 5 meg bitmap spectaculers with no preloaders and limited gameplay?

I myself, still design for the 56k. Just think, they used to get some of the best games in the world in at under 10k.

That's my rant for today.

Chris (waiting.... and waiting... for things to load)

p.S it is worth noting when Flash 4 appeared, modems where loading at about 2.8k a second. Now they are at about 4.8k if your lucky. The speed has not even doubled, yet I have seen Flash file sizes on the web increase by 20x.

[strille]

I agree with you on many points... Files that are say 200Kb or above definitely needs a preloader or some streaming. That being said, broadband is becoming quite common these days. I don't know what the standard is in other countries, but the last figure I read said 35% of the Swedish internet users are connected via broadband. It won't be long until modem users are a minority. BUT, I think low bandwidth will continue to be an issue for quite some time with the increaing use of PDA:s and Mobile phones capable of viewing flash.

P.S. If you're tired of long loading times, check out my snake game in the signature.

[tonypa]

You still think Flash is for creating web games? It was, long times ago, when version 5 appeared. MM is doing their best to get rid of that idea. Flash is for serious application development, they say, not for small silly games. As no serious application is not meant for some casual surfer to download with his modem, then nobody cares.

If you create your movie like MM wants, using components and AS2, you surely have no control over the filesize. Many extra bytes are just rubbish, but thats the price you pay for not creating buttons and text boxes yourself and using drag-and-drop stuff.

Of course there are countless Flash games that are too big just because they are badly made. "Compress bitmaps?" "Change mp3 bitrate?" Many Flash users doesnt even know they can do that.

[murraymint]

strille,

You have a point. I am of course speaking for a UK audience who still suffer from being way behind the rest of the world in terms of telecommunications.

I suppose the problem is that the jump from modems to broadband is so extreme, you have to design for either one or the other.

Personally I still want my stuff to be viewed by the average household which in the UK certainly is still only on modems.

I know I have posted this thread in the games section, but I did mean all Flash developments including apps.

I'm sure the time will come when broadband overtakes modems, and then I will be wondering what the hell i was whinging about, I guess I'm just asking that developers don't let their creativity and innovation slide.

Thanks for listening

Chris.

P.s I do have broadband at work!!

[WilloughbyJackson]

I think it's best to design small because smaller file sizes usually work better.

I always try to design for 56 Kers in mind (mostly because I'm 56 K-impaired at home).

Personally, I find optimization part of the challenge and creative process...

Then again, I'm nuts...

-pXw

[Squize]

In an ideal world we would be able to develop seperate versions, like the old days of CD and floppy versions of games.

It's a pity we don't all have the time to do it, I'd love the chance to do something a lot better with the sound in my games ( More than just improved bitrates, like interactive soundtracks etc. ) but it takes long enough to make a "base" version of a game and how much call would there be for a broadband version of a game ?

I imagine most broadband games would just use the extra bandwidth to have more intro/outro screens rather than using it to it's fullest potential ( Rather like the first CD based games, where no one really knew what to do with that extra capacity ). That's when things will get really interesting, when that extra bandwidth is used to take games to new levels and in new directions.

Squize.

PS. For a 2meg Flash game I'd expect the world to be honest

[Olorin]

I think you're absolutely right Even though quite a few people have broadband, there are still loads of modem users, and when you get a lot of traffic to your site, it's also important to keep te filesize down for download speed. (not to mention data transfer bills)

optimizing vector graphics, bringing .gifs down to 16 colors where possible, increasing the compression on .jpgs and bringing down the bitrate op .mp3s are things that every professional webgame designer should do... I try to keep my games below 200k as much as possible. Simple games can easily be done in 50k or less.

Olorin

[kdsh7]

I'm right with you on this one Murraymint. As the last remaining 56ker out of my particular circle of friends and contacts, bandwidth and filesize are things that my game designs are based around from the ground up. It is hard at times to curb my creative instincts and go all out multimedia on each release, but at the end of the day I feel I'm making games for people like me - and that means thinking of all those people who get just as annoyed as I do waiting for stuff to load, especially without a preloader.

There was that case last year where this guy posted a 4Mb game and - get this - a broadband version at 10Mb! The game did have lots of fancy bitmaps and the sound was clear enough to presume a full 44khz stereo soundtrack - and the feedback was all highly positive - but i'll be damned if I'm waiting 25 minutes to play a simple scrolling shoot-em-up.

I was horrified when my last game ballooned up to 500k, especially when I'd done everything to keep the filesize down even using optimized vector graphics for all the artwork. My first game, a platformer was also 500k, but there would be a preloader for the first level (100k) and it would let you play as soon as that had loaded. Thanks to MX we can link objects without putting them in the first frame and I think more people need to remember that. A lot of preloaders are starting after having loaded huge AS linked MC's in the first frame and that blank flash screen is enough to convince many 56kers to just close the window.

[luxregina]

kdsh7 -> i'm following you from one thread to the other !

As everybody stated before, it is true that there is more and more 'heavy' games around ... i won't rephrase what you already know ( that secular thing about the increasing of offer levels up expectations ... ) but i was thinking that i could bring a different point of view :

We are not talking about websites here, we are not talking about undesired pop up messages, vital information, or such things, we are talking about games, amateur games for the most of them, which represent a form of expression from the guy who put time in it. and a commitment to accept to wait a bit more from the guy that want to play.

It is natural that that guy want to show the best experience of his game : we're talking about content that worths the wait, and, unfortunately maybe, it is the maker of the file that will be judge of that.

[rollinr33]

I guess it depends how u look at it. If you are making these games for money, then design for small, reach the most people you can. But if it is just a hobby to ya, and you are getting zero cash, design it to be whatever you want.

[fospher.com]

OK - to me I think another factor is affecting the issue. Nowadays, Im seeing a lot of websites get FWA's and other awards while their size may easily exceed 1.5 megs - like the old whos we, neostream, etc. People look at them and say "Oh, if those bigshots can design in big numbers, why cant I make my game as big?!".

But a lot of these kids dont realize that they are designing for a whole lot different community. While 2A, and neostream can care less about the 12-year old using his grandma's computer, because he wont bring them any business anyways, for game-makers, those 12-year olds are their main market. Sure, they're not the ones buying it - but a company like Miniclip or gamerival doesnt aim at big corporate studios(with an optic-fiber internet connection)'s employees to go online and play "Ultra Armageddon".

But does it really matter? Will it affect the price of your game? Not at all. Online gaming websites aren't planning to buy something that isnt fit for the general public. And that means, as long as you are coming out with compressed, quality content - those kids arent gonna bother ya.


And if you think 56k is too slow nowadays - try having Squize as a beta tester! While on modem it may take 4-7 minutes to see something, Squize will gladly wait 2, 3 weeks before replying to your email!

just kidding you twat, take your time

[murraymint]

When I started surfing the net the Flash community was very small and it was considered 'best practice' to keep filesizes down and make preloaders.

Inevitabley as more people get their hands on Flash and all the cut and paste code out there we are going to see games where there are no thoughts given to loading, filesize etc.

Let's face it, creating menus, loaders etc. is tedious at the best of times, so it is only our pride as game designers that drives us to give our players the best experience possible.

It is also probably worth noting, I and many of us here are from a generation of spectrums, atari, phillips where games were small, but complete. No fancy intros, no great graphics, midi music and the odd spot sound effect.

That said, they always had good menus, loading pictures or games and the gameplay was always enough to keep you coming back.

The new generation only know Playstation, Nintendo etc. Big games, realistic graphics, great sounds. It is probably to be expected that this new generation of developers will attempt to convert to the web what they have grown up with, just as we do with games like arkanoid, asteroids etc.

On one hand kids of today may be expecting playstation games on the net, on the other they are probably intrigued by the simplicity and style of older games.

He He, I remember waiting about 20 mins for my Golden Axe tape to load on my Commodore 64. Chose a character, then had to flip the tape over only to wait another 20 mins. Then, the almost obligatory white screen crash!! Ahh the good old days...Not much has changed hey.

Thanks for comments.

Chris.