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Thread: A post on behalf of the visually impaired

  1. #21
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    Re: 508 section of the ADA

    Originally posted by shoals
    A good law suit or two would help these folks understand that sites that want to do business with the public should be readable to all! There are so many things that are taken for granted! Try using a screen reader sometime instead of the screen.
    No - public sector sites need to readable by all, since they provide a service for and paid for by the public.

    Anything else - it might be good practise but in the end who really cares whether some random web-designer's portfolio is accessible or not?

    - n.

  2. #22
    Lunch is for wimps. erova's Avatar
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    Re: Re: 508 section of the ADA

    Originally posted by enemem
    Anything else - it might be good practise but in the end who really cares whether some random web-designer's portfolio is accessible or not?
    while i agree that you're right about 508 compliance being only legally applicable to US government sites, i think it's safe to say we're talking more about sites as a whole than just designers' portfolio sites--and with more and more devices and browsers, building a standards compliant, accessible site that looks sharp sure doesn't seem like a step backward.

  3. #23
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    Re: Re: Re: 508 section of the ADA

    Originally posted by erova
    while i agree that you're right about 508 compliance being only legally applicable to US government sites, i think it's safe to say we're talking more about sites as a whole than just designers' portfolio sites--and with more and more devices and browsers, building a standards compliant, accessible site that looks sharp sure doesn't seem like a step backward.
    I completely agree with you, it makes perfect sense from a business point of view to build accessible sites.

    I just felt that talking about lawsuits to make people see sense was an overreaction + blows the issue out of all proportion.

    - n.

  4. #24
    Harry Tuttle phantomflanflinger's Avatar
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    HTML isn't so big a problem, because you can adjust font sizes on your computer globally so that every word is bigger all the time. My Dad is short sighted and he views with large fonts and (if he wears his reading glasses) he can read everything fine, except tiny-text Flash sites of course.

    Flash is where the problem is. It's exempt from all font settings. And again I can't believe these ar$h0le5 who have tiny text and disable the right-click >> Zoom option, they must really hate everyone who isn't a geek.

    Small text does not look cool. It just looks like small text. No worse, no better, from a design aspect. Would 2advanced.com look worse if the text was bigger? (It's not too small, I can read it, but it should be a bit bigger.)

    Pro Web designers should not be forced to make sites readable. They should just do it. I'm not saying all sites should follow all the minute accessibility rules... but... damn it.
    We're all in it together

  5. #25
    Lunch is for wimps. erova's Avatar
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    Re: Re: Re: Re: 508 section of the ADA

    Originally posted by enemem

    I just felt that talking about lawsuits to make people see sense was an overreaction + blows the issue out of all proportion.

    - n.
    agreed.

    i still have every intention to continue working on my flash portfolio site, but then if a screen reader or handheld tries to browse my site, there's an option to just skip to my accessible xhtml resume. as far as the liklihood that's gonna happen, who knows. but it didn't take long to build and if by some strange chance someone stumbles upon it (more likely via a google search) it addresses the issue before it comes up.

  6. #26
    Modding with Class JabezStone's Avatar
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    For anyone who is interested, CSS definitely is supported in the new Flash Player v.7.

    Although it is only partially supported, it will definitely help with the text size issue... but only if a designer/developer makes provision for it.

    Here is a link to a CSS/Flash demo at "Dynamic Flash" http://www.dynamicflash.co.uk/flash7/stylesheet.html

    Also, here is a little blurb at Macromedia regarding the implementation of CSS... http://www.macromedia.com/devnet/mx/...mx2004_03.html

    I think one of the most important factors here is that accessibility really cannot be conquered with Flash. They have integrated many things into the program to make it a fantastic tool, but it just cannot be used for applications where accessibility is important.

  7. #27
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    Originally posted by JabezStone
    For anyone who is interested, CSS definitely is supported in the new Flash Player v.7.

    Although it is only partially supported, it will definitely help with the text size issue... but only if a designer/developer makes provision for it.
    you can change the text size in Flash 5 by using html tags - it's not really a new piece of technology

    The fact that nobody has ever seemed to use it could be because Flash has been used for sites geared towards entertainment/design/etc rather than serious applications. That is changing now, so perhaps accessibility will become more of an issue.

    What's more is that even if you change text-size, the rest of the content doesn't move to accommodate the larger text automatically (as HTML would) - fixed width/height content makes the whole story even more difficult.

    - n.

  8. #28
    Senior Citizen phacker's Avatar
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    One of the things that lead me to Flash was the scaleability aspect of it. But no one seems to use that but me...and I catch flack all the time for letting things scale, and I never turn off the right click. I think sometimes we get so wrapped up into how our stuff looks we don't consider that others are viewing it on a different sort of unit than we are (I have a 21" monitor...how many people out there have that luxury?). I like the fact that those on a laptop can see my entire page without scrolling....so sometimes it gets a little foggy...I think they expect that on such a small screen.

    I for one am really tired of not being able to read the navigation on some sites. I'd rather see pixelated fonts than go through that...I don't usually go back. I try to place my fonts on whole numbers, but sometimes that just can't be done...but the middle aged target population that comes to my site doesn't seem to mind that sometimes the fonts are a little foggy...afterall it's an entertainment site. And I provide alternate thumbnails as buttons. Things can't be perfect all the time...and I am not that anal.

    Anway that's my take.

  9. #29
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    The Hard Reality

    The hard reality of the subject is this: Should all Web sites (be them Flash or otherwise)be accessable to all viewers? In theory, yes. However, there are dozens of roadblocks when builing Web sites that unfortunately still exsist that make this virtually impossible. Should we build sites for 3.0 browsers or 640x480 resolution? Should we design for modems slower than 56K? The point is there are still a small percentage of the surfing public that the former applies to, but we still have to think of the majority of surfers. Its just more cost effective for most clients who don't want to spend the money on two or three versions of their Web site.

    As far as text size, I can advisde my client that the text should be larger when he/she tells me to make it smaller, and remind them of accessabilty issues, but in the end the client wants what they want. For example, I've had one client tell me to "get that black guy off of my home page" refering to a stock photo I used in the design, and another tell me "women don't buy real estate, I don't want to see any women in my ads" when I had a photo of a woman in a magazine ad comp. We all know they're wrong, but in the end they pay the bills.

  10. #30
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    The Hard Reality

    The hard reality of the subject is this: Should all Web sites (be them Flash or otherwise)be accessable to all viewers? In theory, yes. However, there are dozens of roadblocks when builing Web sites that unfortunately still exsist that make this virtually impossible. Should we build sites for 3.0 browsers or 640x480 resolution? Should we design for modems slower than 56K? The point is there are still a small percentage of the surfing public that the former applies to, but we still have to think of the majority of surfers. Its just more cost effective for most clients who don't want to spend the money on two or three versions of their Web site.

    As far as text size, I can advisde my client that the text should be larger when he/she tells me to make it smaller, and remind them of accessabilty issues, but in the end the client wants what they want. For example, I've had one client tell me to "get that black guy off of my home page" refering to a stock photo I used in the design, and another tell me "women don't buy real estate, I don't want to see any women in my ads" when I had a photo of a woman in a magazine ad comp. We all know they're wrong, but in the end they pay the bills.

  11. #31
    Harry Tuttle phantomflanflinger's Avatar
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    You've got some real *******s for clients Syntax!

    And like I said before, no client specifically asks for tiny text - ever. Am I right or am I right?

    This has been a good thread. This tiny text fad is a 100% bad thing, let's hope it dies out, along with the uselss Flash intro everyone skips.
    We're all in it together

  12. #32
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    That's only two isolated instances of a small percentage of our clients. I'm just illustrating a point. And I would be surprised of all of your clients let you do whatever you want. I have never met a client that doesn't make bad design requests, and even with good guidance, one or two of those suggestions unfortunately make it to the final product.

  13. #33
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    No clients ever specify small text for their site, but more often than not they will say "i want it to look like that site"
    now if the site they like has small text, then whether they know it or not, they wan't small font sizes and if thats what they want, then thats what they get. I only arguee back if i think the font is too large. Long live 'fonts for flash'

  14. #34
    Harry Tuttle phantomflanflinger's Avatar
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    "I would be surprised of all of your clients let you do whatever you want"
    So would I.

    "Long live fonts for Flash?"
    No, they won't live long. Once again: the tiny text fad will go away. You won't be making those eyestraining sites in a year's time.
    We're all in it together

  15. #35
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    I like that jaybirch! If we do sites that are always visually impared friendly, where is the art in that? If we are complaining about more and more sites are using small fonts now...should we also complain about sites that use large fonts? I've browsed a site ones in my 800 x 600 monitor and really cursed the site for making me scroll everytime.

    The whole situation does not only appear in websites alone. Like why are cellphones getting smaller? And why are they more expensive than the larger ones? Why do small cars are sometimes 'hip'? and many more....The fact is we think that small things are handy, cool in may ways and so on. I'm not saying that big ones are not. They too can be as cool as the small ones. Actually, it's how we use all these things in our design that is important. What is important is the site should look good in the end. It should capture the interest of the viewers and not bore them to death.

    Long Live Small Fonts btw!...They exist - so lets use them wisely.
    http://www.axistrizero.com

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