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Thread: You Have To Be Kidding Me!!

  1. #1
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    You Have To Be Kidding Me!!

    <!-- start rant -->
    I just read through the site linked to on the front page (*************.net). WHAT A JOKE! $25 dollars for a Flash and HTML template, and it's not by contract to boot!

    I don't know about some of the rest of you out there.. But I have been a professional web designer for 5+ years. I am skilled in almost all the Adobe and Macromedia products, most web based coding languages, database design and pretty much every wysiwyg editor out there.

    Even in my early days of site development, I would laugh at someone requesting such a site on such a budget. Site's like this are making a mockery of what I hold as acquired skill, refined over years of practice, experience and research.

    Now I can understand making a request for a $1000 site for $500. But I can't understand requesting a $3000 site for $25 dollars. Either someone is really stupid or really desperate, beyond the point of reasoning.

    You throw on the idea of 'You make it, I will tell you if I pay you.' and you have an idea so bad it rivals Netscape 4.7 for the all time worst idea, EVER. (For those of you that don't know - Netscape 4.7 is notorious for not supporting any of the internet standards including HTML and CSS)

    Well, I just need to rant a little on this topic and see what other people think.

    If you agree with me, or not, post your opinion. I will be sure to keep up on this thread.

    Keep the file size down. I'm out.
    <!-- end rant -->

  2. #2
    Huygens to Titan PCRIDE's Avatar
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    There just tem[plates, they have so many 25 a pop is good money when you can sell quanity!, I contract web design and I talk to clients and they are totally interested in a website for their co. untill I tell them the price for around 500-700$ us which includs 6 months of hosting and updates on the page


    People are cheap and I have to drop my prices to about 300 and do a cheap site, but if I can do it in a few days, that will be a good deal

    1. 300 in a few days

    2. client for life


    3 then hit them up down the road for more money for updates and changes.

    People just don't want to pay is the bottom line

  3. #3
    FK's Wave Pimp kamyab's Avatar
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    I am kidding you.

  4. #4
    New Wave Visionray's Avatar
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    I don't understand why people get so pissed about this. Different people have different budgets, and if you are such as skilled designer, what are you worried about? You shouldn't have a problem finding work for a much higher rate with clients who have bigger budgets.

    Now, don't get me wrong, $25 is a rediculous amount, but the beauty of it is you don't have to do the job. Moreover, $25 is nowhere near the average rate for a decent website, so I highly doubt small offerings like these really effect the average salary of good designers.

    Web designers are like lawyers. They are a dime a dozen. If I offer $10 an hour to get a lawyer, guess what? I'm going to either get a crappy lawyer, OR I might get lucky and get one who wants some exposure. I think the same thing works for design. At that rate your goign to get an amateur design or you might get lucky and find a good one who wants to build their portfolio. The fact is, there are people out there who are willing to design sites on the cheap for whatever reason.

    Just because some idiot offers 25 dollars for a flash site, doesn't mean you can't charge 3,000 to someone else. If that person says they can get a site done for cheaper, then well...the competition has beat you out. That's
    the name of the game, and maybe you don't want a client anyway who is going to be that cheap. If anything, you should be blaming the designers for accepting these cheap jobs instead of the people offering, because they are the ones allowing this situation to happen. People are always going to try and get the cheapest rate. It's up to the design community to set some standards.

  5. #5
    Illuminatus! fospher.com's Avatar
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    Its the fact that a client thinks he can get the same job done whether he pays 5,000 for a small flash intro to say, widegroup, and his neighbor's kid for 10 bucks and a pack of doublemint. Thats what killed the market.

  6. #6
    Senior Member SubwayDesigns's Avatar
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    I find it worse when someone charges 20000$ for a four page html website with no usabillity just because non-tech people don't know anything about webdesign.

  7. #7
    Illuminatus! fospher.com's Avatar
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    Originally posted by SubwayDesigns
    I find it worse when someone charges 20000$ for a four page html website with no usabillity just because non-tech people don't know anything about webdesign.
    Why? They are raising the prices of the product. I think it's great - if you can get more out of the client - why not do so? Besides, nobody just has 20,000(except an equisite few) to throw away, the client must have been impressed with the designer's work.

  8. #8
    An Inconvenient Serving Size hurricaneone's Avatar
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    If you cannot convince a potential client that you can make a better product than a US$25 template, then I recommend that you find something else to occupy your time.
    Stand by for emergency synapse rerouting

  9. #9
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    Originally posted by PCRIDE
    There just tem[plates, they have so many 25 a pop is good money when you can sell quanity!, I contract web design and I talk to clients and they are totally interested in a website for their co. untill I tell them the price for around 500-700$ us which includs 6 months of hosting and updates on the page


    People are cheap and I have to drop my prices to about 300 and do a cheap site, but if I can do it in a few days, that will be a good deal

    1. 300 in a few days

    2. client for life


    3 then hit them up down the road for more money for updates and changes.

    People just don't want to pay is the bottom line
    I totally agree with you here. I cut prices right and left for newer clients so they feel comfortable. Most of the time they come back for "servicing".

    The problem here is that its not a 500-700 dollar site going for 300. It's a 1500 dollar site going for 25 dollars. There is no guarntee of getting the work before doing the work, and the "template" is now owned by the client. Or atleast that is the request in the particular post that I was reading.

  10. #10
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    Originally posted by Visionray
    I don't understand why people get so pissed about this. Different people have different budgets, and if you are such as skilled designer, what are you worried about? You shouldn't have a problem finding work for a much higher rate with clients who have bigger budgets.
    Bahh.. I can accept some one under bidding me. Or flat out taking a hit on the costs to get the job. But I can't accept someone be-littling the skills of designers.

    Now, don't get me wrong, $25 is a rediculous amount, but the beauty of it is you don't have to do the job. Moreover, $25 is nowhere near the average rate for a decent website, so I highly doubt small offerings like these really effect the average salary of good designers.
    Yeah you don't have to do it. You may do it and not get paid.

    Web designers are like lawyers. They are a dime a dozen. If I offer $10 an hour to get a lawyer, guess what? I'm going to either get a crappy lawyer, OR I might get lucky and get one who wants some exposure. I think the same thing works for design. At that rate your goign to get an amateur design or you might get lucky and find a good one who wants to build their portfolio. The fact is, there are people out there who are willing to design sites on the cheap for whatever reason.
    Your right here. No doubt. The problem I have with this is that then you get all these crap designs out there that don't support all browser, have bad navigation systems, blink tags, and all the stuff that anyone with have an ounce of web design ablity wouldn't do. I like to call them "Getto Sites".

    Just because some idiot offers 25 dollars for a flash site, doesn't mean you can't charge 3,000 to someone else. If that person says they can get a site done for cheaper, then well...the competition has beat you out. That's
    the name of the game, and maybe you don't want a client anyway who is going to be that cheap. If anything, you should be blaming the designers for accepting these cheap jobs instead of the people offering, because they are the ones allowing this situation to happen. People are always going to try and get the cheapest rate. It's up to the design community to set some standards.
    Overall, I agree with your comments. You have a great post.

  11. #11
    Senior Member SubwayDesigns's Avatar
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    Originally posted by fospher.com
    Why? They are raising the prices of the product. I think it's great - if you can get more out of the client - why not do so? Besides, nobody just has 20,000(except an equisite few) to throw away, the client must have been impressed with the designer's work.
    because you're abusing somebody's naiveness. I don't have anything against it if the work is good quality, but if a designer tells a client 10000$ is the regular price for a 4 page descriptive html site, it's just not fair. Business, but not fair - and when the client realises he's been had it'll hurt the industry as a whole, not just the particular designer.

  12. #12
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    Yet another great post.

    There is definatly a fine balance between making a profit and going in the hole over project. I don't believe in the idea of under charging ten times, then over charging 1 time to make up for it.

    When I get a project, I look at what needs to be done, then I figure how many hours it will take if everything goes like it should. Anyone that does project management as well as development, KNOWS it DOESN'T work this way. So then you have to decide if your going to pad your bid or if your just going to take it on the premiss that everything is going to go to plan, and if it doesn't then your just out the money.

    A great rule of thumb, that has worked for me is, it's easier to bid high, then lower the price, then it is to bid low and try to raise the price.

    Bottom line is, if you rip off your client, they may not come back for more work. On the other hand if you get ripped off, they may come back for more when you rathered they didn't.

    If you give them a discount once. They think they get it all the time.. Same thing if you rip them off.

  13. #13
    Senior Member SubwayDesigns's Avatar
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    Originally posted by @
    Bottom line is, if you rip off your client, they may not come back for more work. On the other hand if you get ripped off, they may come back for more when you rathered they didn't.

    If you give them a discount once. They think they get it all the time.. Same thing if you rip them off.
    Exactly, and in both of those cases it's not only hurting a single designer, but all designers/developpers. So in the end I guess we all gain from bidding fairly - that is, being fair for the client and for yourself.

  14. #14
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    Originally posted by SubwayDesigns
    because you're abusing somebody's naiveness. I don't have anything against it if the work is good quality, but if a designer tells a client 10000$ is the regular price for a 4 page descriptive html site, it's just not fair. Business, but not fair - and when the client realises he's been had it'll hurt the industry as a whole, not just the particular designer.
    I agree 100%, I spoke with a friend's father who had to cancel further action on their site design because after US$5000, they decided it was getting to expensive.. The site had a terrible 5 second flash into (just the logo fading in, and poor quality), and 5 HTML pages (all identical with different content).. he charged him $50/hour and on the invoice noted 100 hours.. I felt so bad I offered to do a full site for him for $1000 with more flash and a better design (not a FrontPage remake)..
    ..tween this

  15. #15
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    I have been working as a designer for over 10 years, and have had the opportunity to belong to various professional organizations that try to help advocate peer guidelines for such circumstances.

    I would like to help add a bit of structure to this discussion. I believe this issue has two key components:

    1) Doing design work for, what might by industry standards, seem unrealistically low priced

    2) Doing what is typically referred to as "Speculative Work", or "Spec." = doing design work up front, without contractual agreement or exclusivity, with or without the ultimate aim of acquiring a fee for said work (free work is aka 'pro bono')

    As far as issue 1 goes, I believe you can effectively argue that this is acceptable using many of the positions already put forth in this thread. However, associations like the Graphic Artists Guild try to advocate certain price-range guidelines for various types of work. It could be said that they have not kept up with the times, especially for interactive or more integrated approaches to projects. But, the 'official' data exists, and if you aspire to be a pro at this, you should at least know what standards you are dismissing when you accept a job for a low-ball fee. (See GAG Handbook: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...02115/jydesign)

    Now, issue 2 is what I believe is underlying the frustration that can be found on this general topic. While it might be easier to rationalize competitive pricing relative to ones skill, experience, or sheer desperation, "Spec" work is basically abhorred in the larger professional design community. You will see in the links provided below that many professional design associations and renowned individuals take a rather clear stance on Spec work. While there is no fast and hard rule for this, there are guidelines and there is a clear message 'out there' in the professional design community.

    If you intend to make design your life's work, you need to grow in both your ability to meet clients needs, and your standing as a professional within a group of peers. While competitive pricing is accepted as reality, consistently doing Spec work is usually held in contempt. So, that said, we are all free to grow our portfolio on Spec if we want to risk potential professional criticism.

    I think services such as CreativeMoonlighter (who recently merged with guru.com) strike a more appropriate balance when job matching on the Web. They allow prospects to essentially post electronic RFQs, and designers can bid/submit proposals. This allows for a combination of price and portfolio to gain entry, but specifically discourages Spec work in _project postings_.

    - - SOURCES - -

    "4.1 A designer shall not undertake any work for a client without adequate compensation, except with respect to work for charitable or nonprofit organizations. 4.2 A designer shall not undertake any speculative projects, either alone or in competition with other designers, for which compensation will only be received if a design is accepted or used. This applies not only to entire projects but also to preliminary schematic proposals."

    -- AIGA: Earlier draft of statement of policy on professional practice http://www.stlouis.aiga.org/standards.htm

    (the main AIGA site states the following about the document above - "AIGA has withdrawn the standards of professional practice while a national task force reviews the previous version and develops an appropriate statement of principles for the profession for the 21st century economy." http://www.aiga.org/content.cfm?Alia...ardsofpractice)

    AIGA Article: To spec or not to spec
    http://www.aiga.org/content.cfm?ContentID=141

    CreativeMoonlighter: Policy on Spec
    http://www.creativemoonlighter.com/C..._hottopics.cfm

    TIEMdesign: Speculative Work
    http://www.tiemdesign.com/features/s...vework2001.htm
    TIEMdesign: Speculative Work Revisited
    http://www.tiemdesign.com/features/s...ted5102000.htm

    Best regards
    J.
    Last edited by jyflash; 11-26-2003 at 02:06 PM.
    J.Y. Design
    www.jydesign.com

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