same sex marriage - what's the big deal???

**Flea-x** · 03-08-2004, 07:53 PM

i thought we were trying to change other peoples points of views, that would make more sense to me. for instance a lot of people here have had their views changed because of this thread, maybe not completely, but at least partially. i for one have had mixed feelings about this whole thing, and this thread has sorted them out. maybe this post in particular is going nowhere, but i do feel many of the others have.. just imo, don't bite my head off here..

i dont understand how this is ending in tragedy, or fist-fights, i think its fine.

but if you want to leave it i think that is okay, everyone has had plenty enough chance to state their opinion, and yes, maybe now it is just leading to fights.

***gerbick*** · 03-08-2004, 07:55 PM

flea, you make no sense, you have no point. seriously.

yas, you're right. so far, with the last few people that have entered into the discussion, it's quickly taking a nasty turn; per usual of discussions of this type.

**nordberg** · 03-08-2004, 08:04 PM

Originally posted by gerbick
flea, you make no sense, you have no point. seriously.

yas, you're right. so far, with the last few people that have entered into the discussion, it's quickly taking a nasty turn; per usual of discussions of this type.

honestly, i can't believe how well this has gone. sure, there is always some bickering - but threads like this usually don't last more than 50 posts...and we are sailing way past 300.

cheers to everyone!

and on a side note, let's not fail to notice that despite his obvious feelings, XU1 is the one flying a rainbow avatar...LOL!

**dlowe93** · 03-08-2004, 08:10 PM

Originally posted by gerbick

yas, you're right. so far, with the last few people that have entered into the discussion, it's quickly taking a nasty turn; per usual of discussions of this type.

Huh? Not me i hope. I tried to be nice. Besides, it's a nice change to be on the same side of a discussion with Davo, i just wanted to see what it was like.

Seriously, i will politely bow out, with what i should have said earlier. My whole perception of marriage changed dramatically when i got married, and my perception of families changed dramatically when my son was born, and even more so now that son number two is only a few days away.

It is my firm a true belief that there is nothing more powerful, more amazing and more wonderful than the family, in all its many and varied shapes and forms. I think we should all honor that.

With respect to everyone,

d.

**Loyal Rogue** · 03-08-2004, 08:18 PM

Originally posted by jide
Why impose our beliefs on you? Because we don't want you to go to hell.

[Hijack]
Way too over-zealous, jide.
You are sufferring from the "New Christian Curse".
What you said goes against everything the USA was founded on.
Freedom OF religion is the same thing as freedom FROM religion.
I really don't think you would agree with Islamics, Buddists, Hindus, or Satanists being able to "impose" their beliefs on the rest of us, do you?
With that kind of attitude you are going to push people away from Christ instead of bringing them into a relationship with him.
A man is known by the fruit he bears.
Overbearing theocratic domination is one rotten, evil, nasty tasting fruit...

Did I say that in a loving way?

[/Hijack]

Marriage is just a word, and when applied in the legal sense it doesn't mean anything spiritual and has nothing to do with love or morals.

Out of everything you said, I think this comes closest to what the debate is over.
The whole reason this is an unconstitutional issue is not because of morals, love, spirituality, mainstream thinking, or homophobia.
This is a case of a group of citizens being denied certain legal rights that other citizens are entitled to.
If the government got completely out of the marriage issue entirely, meaning NO benefits whatsoever for married couples and marriage became an entirely religious institution then this issue would be dead.
BUT since this is not the case, it is unconstitutional to grant special legal rights to straight couples and deny those same legal rights from gay couples.

And now just to go off on a tangent..., there's supposed to be some big topless event going on down here in Florida for women to protest the fact that men are legally allowed to be seen in public bare-chested and that they're being denied the same right.
I'll have to look it up later.
Apparently the city that it's being held in can't do anything about it because they have a law on the books that nudity is allowed under the protection of the right to assemble and protest.

**cancerinform** · 03-08-2004, 08:23 PM

originally posted by PAlexC

Considering homosexuality isn't anything new, and the history of how the Bible and modern Christianity came about, I'd have a hard time beliving God's going to send people to hell automatically for being gay.

Well, I heard Bush is getting his messages directly from God. Do you want to say the President of this great country is telling a lie?!

And God send Adam and Eve out of the Paradice (similar to the hell) for eating an apple. It's all written in the Bible.

**wolfie1980** · 03-08-2004, 08:39 PM

opps posted twice... hehe just edit to undo i guess.

'my bad'

**wolfie1980** · 03-08-2004, 08:40 PM

OK ENOUGH!!!

It seems people just aren't understanding. I won't point the finger but I can say he is new to the topic. XU1 and FlashDAVO it ain't you.

FIRST drop the whole christian thing ok. As was stated by i believe both sides of the main discussion/debate, there is no arguement based upon religious beliefs. SO DROP THE BIBLE OUT THE WINDOW AND [insert word of choice] LEAVE IT THERE OK!

SECOND IF i hear one more comment on race I am going to scream. While it can deliever a good point it ain't really that valid. XU1 (Tony) I take your side here.... Yes people the GAY man has stood next to his opposition. Everyone else here seems to go hammer and nail at XU1's points. Not realising his points are based around a more moral sense then anything else. Morals are taught to us all from a young age by our parents. As we get older we develop these teaching based on lifes lessons and so forth. SO AGAIN DROP THE BIBLE BASHING

Now with that said I hope everyone understands a litle better. However I would like to make comment on some of the posts. Theses are comments and nothing more.

Originally posted by dlowe93
And (while you have me riled up) this same couple got married last week. They were one of the first couples to get married here, and now are named in a class action lawsuit buy a local conservative Christian organization, that is attempting to nullify their vows and stop the county from issuing any further marriage licenses to same-sex couples. A class-action lawsuit certianly sounds like the good Christian thing to me. What would Jesus do indeed.

d.

I think just about everyone here would agree that this is a bloody joke. I even think (not sure) XU1 would agree here, whilst still believing it is immoral. But from a whole legal sense. It is the STATE itself who with evening looking at morals or religion has made gay marriage legal. Therefore whats does a religious body have to do with it, and why should they be allowed to bring up a class action about it. I say it should be thrown out of court on that bases.

Originally posted by TheOriginalFlashDavo
Anyway, I find his post very appropriate and quite moving...

------------------------------------

The decision of President Bush to actually attempt to rewrite our Constitution to ban gay marriage is incredibly sad and disappointing.

I don't want to make a political statement, just a simple point that seems to be at the core of so much pain and suffering in the world.

The thing that comes closest to bringing us together in the world is love. In every culture, in every corner of the world you will find mothers and fathers who love their children with every ounce of their being. You will find men and women who passionately love each other. You will find friends who would give their lives for their friends. Mark Bingham was one of these people. He lived and loved with passion.

The opposite of love is not hate. Hate is a by-product. The opposite of love is fear.

The President appears to be motivated by his particular religious beliefs, but I would argue his views are more grounded in fear than the life of Jesus. Jesus preached love and compassion and understanding. He never uttered one word about homosexuality. Anyone who truly understands what it is to love would not stand in the way of anyone else loving and being loved.

I have yet to hear anyone explain how gay men and women getting married will affect any one else's marriage.

Rosa Parks made history - personifying dignity and courage - by not getting up out of her seat. Mark made history - personifying character and bravery - by getting up out of his.

Fear has been behind denying any number of groups their rights. Let's stop making that mistake. Love is not the enemy. Love is not scary. Let's stop making decisions as a society based on fear.

------------------------------------

Let's stop making decisions as a society based on fear.

This is a moving comment. nearly brought tears to the eyes too. But please everyone just don't use this for making arguements or starting another debate. Like the URL's i posted back earlier they are all just interesting to read. Nothing more.

oK This is the last one for now. But I went back to page 15 for this so I could reply to jide. here is his post which was a reply to mine from the top of page 15.

Originally posted by jide
What I am saying is that if you don't repent, you will go to hell. But remember, repentance isn't just something that is said, but a genuine feeling of guilt. I don't want to see anyone go to hell, but it will happen in this society where the devil has corrupted our minds so much. You have to remember that not everyone will die slowly on a hospital bed, and if they do, they'll often be in too much pain to think about repenting. You have to do your best to live a life free of sin, just in case. It's really not worht taking the risk of going to hel for all eternity.

Yes I do sin. But I do my best not to. This is what Jesus' message is. You can't "cheat the system" and just repent the second before you die. You have to let God into your life first. Once you do that, you will really understand why what you are doing is wrong. Once you have a connection with God, you will understand your sins much better than I could ever explain to you.

Listen. Homosexuality is CLEARLY a sin. God burned down the city of Sodom because it was full of homosexuals. Don't believe me? Read your Bible. Homosexuality is a sin. I don't want to force my beliefs onto you, but I just want to let you know. I don't want anyone to go to hell.

Here's the thing though. I know the government could never force churches to perform marriage ceremonies for gays. It's simply not going to happen, and it shouldn't. Though laws are created to prevent people from sinning, I don't think that not letting homosexuals to be reckognized as a couple would prevent them from having sex (which is the illegalact). They should be seen as a couple and get the same protections other couples do. That's my opinion. That's why I asked the function of marriage. Thank you for clearing that up.

So to sum things up, I believe that homosexuality is a sin, I hope you all let God into your life before it's too late (though I'm not gonna force you, because my parents tried that on me when I was younger and it didn't work, it wasn't until a few weeks ago that I really let God into my life), and I think homosexuals should LEGALLY be allowed to marry. I sincerely believe there is a difference between marriage reckognized by law and one reckognized by God. I don't think people should have to suffer because they aren't reckognized as a couple, because the devil has tempted you all, and it's sad that many of you can't let God into your lives.

You'll be in my prayers.

This is the type of cr@p i am getting out. Bugger off with your religious cr@p and tell it to someone who really cares. The decision to believe or not to believe it up to the individual. whilst I know you understand this and even say that your views are not being forced onto others, I still think that just by preaching as XU1 said 'fire and brimstone' is just as bad as forcing your beliefs. There is no need to make these comments in any way shape or form.

BUT on the other hand it is good to see that you understand the difference between married by GOD and married by LAW.

Ok now I am done on my little rant and rave. I have stopped jumping up and down. I just hope now that you all understand there is no need to bring either RACE or RELIGION into this. Lets keep that cr@p out.

**cancerinform** · 03-08-2004, 08:53 PM

I am not new. I posted already some time ago and I am following the discussion. Unfortunately, you cannot leave Religion out of this discussion about same sex marriage, cause that is where all the evil discrimination comes from, from people who interpret the bible the way it fit to their opinion and then point with fingers. In many parts in Europe, where Religion is taken more relaxed (you go to church and then to a pub and have fun, I am German) same sex marriage is not a problem. But here it is and I pointed much earlier in the discussion it has something to do with the origin of early immigrants who were puritans and very religious. In particular in allquestions regarding sex in this country religion is a major determining factor and unfortunately people who claim to be religious are the most intolerant.

**wolfie1980** · 03-08-2004, 08:53 PM

PS - i am aware of my typing errors, I just re-read my post and spotted them.. but I can't be bothered editing it and fixing them just for presentation. Screw that.. LOL....

mmmmm now i feel a E&B roll has my name all over it... yum yum..

**wolfie1980** · 03-08-2004, 08:55 PM

cancerinform i wasn't talking about you either... i know your not new.

***gerbick*** · 03-08-2004, 09:54 PM

then that leaves me.

wolfie, calm down. I posted earlier in this thread as well. with you ranting and raving like that, all it will do is bait the flamers to retort.

your point can go over much more smoothly without the ranting.

**TheOriginalFlashDavo** · 03-08-2004, 11:58 PM

Originally posted by dlowe93
In my opinion, therein lies the crux of the debate. One side says that homosexuals enjoy all the civil rights of our society, except for marriage. The other side argues that by excluding them from the right to marry, they do not enjoy all of the civil rights the rest of us do.

Right on David, a point that seems to be alluding some who want to insist that gays enjoy equal civil rights as straight people...

And as for the racial question - sorry, maybe I should have used the example of women's rights only, or something else. Either way, it was an example about discrimination, not about where that discrimination comes from. I don't really care where it comes from, I care about the discrimination that results, in whatever form it appears in.

But the points been made, and while some want to continue to believe that gays have equal rights to straights even while they don't have the right to marry then there ain't really any further need to argue the point...

And while I can certainly see the futility in a discussion that goes round and round (if that's what you see happening here), I can't really see any "nasty turn" happening here. Certainly a strong discussion about a very strong - and very important - issue, but I certainly don't see anything nastier than I would be discussing in a pub with a few mates. Have a couple of drinks and contribute your opinion. The answer to many of life's problems can sometimes come from the most unlikliest of sources...
(and that just referred to an idea coming from anywhere - in general - not anyone specifically here. Sorry, I've learnt how easily some can be offended here, so had to add that disclaimer...)

**XU1** · 03-09-2004, 12:10 AM

Originally posted by TheOriginalFlashDavo

And while I can certainly see the futility in a discussion that goes round and round (if that's what you see happening here), I can't really see any "nasty turn" happening here. Certainly a strong discussion about a very strong - and very important - issue, but I certainly don't see anything nastier than I would be discussing in a pub with a few mates. Have a couple of drinks and contribute your opinion. The answer to many of life's problems can sometimes come from the most unlikliest of sources...
(and that just referred to an idea coming from anywhere - in general - not anyone specifically here. Sorry, I've learnt how easily some can be offended here, so had to add that disclaimer...)

FlashDavo....I'm glad to hear that, caue I dont have any "ill" feelings either, I enjoy a hard debate as well, and as mature people we can walk off disagreeing, but still hold no grudges.

Plus we need the energy for other debates...

only joking

Tony

**cancerinform** · 03-09-2004, 12:46 AM

My question is: why do we have to debate that? If you are gay you are affected and if you are not gay fine, then you don't have to care. What gives non-gay (I hate the word "straight") the right to judge about the life of others? Do you ever want to be judged by somebody because you are addicted to Flash, engaged with your computer? It's your business and if you have a girlfriend and sleep with her and do kinky stuff it's you and your girlfriends business and nobody else. I am German and my wife is Japanese and we live in America and my cousin, to whom I have the best relationship, is gay and married to another gay guy, who is a great guy. Nobody feels guilty and nobody feels abnormal. Here the society especially the so called "Christians" and "religious" people think they have a right to tell anybody whom they have to love. There is only one word: disgusting,

same sex marriage - what's the big deal???

Good Title for this matter!!!!!

**admirablesublim** · 03-10-2004, 03:57 PM

Let me tell ya...
THAT FOR SURE YOU'LL BURN IN HELL...

That isn't what God told us to do... It's suckss !!!
I really dont remember in which part of the bible is this, but be sure you'll not end in heaven...

AND FOR THE ONES THAT SAY: "YOU SHOULDN'T CARE ABOUT"... You really should; think that they will not go to heaven and not enjoy the really good party up there...

Apart... Why would I would get married with a Man, having so much women that I really dont know ??????

**nordberg** · 03-10-2004, 04:02 PM

Originally posted by cancerinform
same sex marriage - what's the big deal???

Good Title for this matter!!!!!

thanks!

i heard the following statement about tattoos once, but it applies here as well:
the only difference between homosexuals and heterosexuals is that that the homosexuals don't care that you're not gay!

**WizyWyg** · 03-10-2004, 04:02 PM

Originally posted by admirablesublim
Let me tell ya...
THAT FOR SURE YOU'LL BURN IN HELL...

That isn't what God told us to do... It's suckss !!!
I really dont remember in which part of the bible is this, but be sure you'll not end in heaven...

<sarcasm>
Good, cause My GOD can beat up your god any day of the week. And my GOD promised that I would goto a nicer place than your so called "heaven".
</sarcasm>

Not all of us believe that fanciful fiction called the "bible".

**admirablesublim** · 03-10-2004, 04:07 PM

If you DON'T believe (What A Pitty !!! You really dont imagine what you are loosing), then pls use the common sense...
It's not right to have sex with a man (supossing you are a man) !!!

Oh by the way... Your God will never beat my God...

**PAlexC** · 03-10-2004, 04:09 PM

Because in America, the only thing one man should put in another is a bullet.

/bill maher

Paul Mooney on Tough Crowd made a point I semi-agree with. This whole Gay marraige thing is a red herring to keep our minds and arguments off of Iraq, Afghanistan, the economy, and our terrible foreign policies. There's no need to worry until they start jailing people for it.

Thread: same sex marriage - what's the big deal???

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