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Thread: Choosing between Recommended code compliance and table based layouts

  1. #1
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    Choosing between Recommended code compliance and table based layouts

    i'll like to know that you guys think of the W3C's recommendations for layout positioning and layouts that are based on tables. 1 thing that really bothers me is the fact the 90% of most visually impactful websites seem to use tables as their primary form of layout tool.

    Im split between following the W3C and reverting to tables....

  2. #2
    tell me, is this sellable..... OddDog's Avatar
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    here are a couple of examples of pure layers coding, with all posicioning, and formatting coming from external .css.

    we changed to layers and .css at the begining of the year. we are happy. and the pages are much better optimized for SERPs


    www.hbfsolutions.com
    www.sewabeats.com
    http://www.hbfsolutions.com/solpasion/
    awaiting client conformacion to publish

  3. #3
    Modding with Class JabezStone's Avatar
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    Good stuff, Patrick...
    Bianster, go towards standards and never look back, man...
    Here's a little feasting for your motivation... http://www.csszengarden.com/
    Click the links in the "Select a Design" sidebar... every site there uses the same base code, just different stylesheets... great stuff, and the possibilities are endless (and standards compliant!)

  4. #4
    tell me, is this sellable..... OddDog's Avatar
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    another example, we just published this one !!

    www.carloscubeiro.com

    all layers. we use lists for listed items, and tables only for tabular data.

  5. #5
    Senior Citizen phacker's Avatar
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    What about viewers with older browsers?
    Click here to visit Scooter's World, the Chihuahua/Pekinese who thinks she is a Doberman, and has the soul of a true "artiste". Computer graphics, animation, logos, mascots (Vector work a specialty.).

  6. #6
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    woah...that's some mighty nice implementations of CSS in CSS Zen Garden,

  7. #7
    YH Jelly Llama Jockey defuzz's Avatar
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    take a look here: http://www.squidfingers.com/

    and then click "disable CSS" at the bottom, shows what will happen with non supportive browsers, though if you stick to the compliant CSS it should work on 90% of user's browsers

  8. #8
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    Just wondering with the use of CSS, I have a question about themes. For example, say I have two themes for my site A and B, with 5 links.

    Originally, the theme is A, but when the user select theme B, the code will switch to theme B CSS for that page. However, when the user go to a different page, it's still theme A. Is it possible for all the pages to change theme when an user has clicked on a different theme?

  9. #9
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    im guessing by using server side scripts to control the css file being loaded. Like after the change theme link or button is clicked, a flag is toggled on a script and the new css file is linked to the page...

  10. #10
    YH Jelly Llama Jockey defuzz's Avatar
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    doing it bianster's way would change it for everyone who visited your site, so if I visit in the morning, I see it with theme A but if someone comes and changes to theme B at lunchtime, when I visit again in the afternoon I see theme B.

    You could set it so a code is appended to the url so each link carries the new theme with it, eg:

    www.yoursite.com

    on the page all the links point to nextpage.php?theme=$theme

    by default, you would set theme=A

    click on link "theme B" = www.yoursite.com/page.php?theme=B

    it then loads your page with theme B and hte local variable is now set to theme=B

    now when you clink the links nextpage.php?theme=$theme opens the next page but tells the page to use theme B

  11. #11
    Modding with Class JabezStone's Avatar
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    Cookies, kids... it's done with cookies.

    here you go.... http://www.alistapart.com/articles/n4switch/

  12. #12
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    wow, thx for all those informative replies.

    They are all really helpful, and I totally forgot about cookies

  13. #13
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    sorry, got another question about CSS.
    For this site http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=017/017.css (one of the zengarden sites).

    What are the CSS codes that make those vertical / horizontal lines? Is it an image and just repeat either x / y or it's something else?

    Thanks

  14. #14
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    Originally posted by xuechao
    sorry, got another question about CSS.
    For this site http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=017/017.css (one of the zengarden sites).

    What are the CSS codes that make those vertical / horizontal lines? Is it an image and just repeat either x / y or it's something else?
    it's just border with a hex of #A79355.

    see: http://www.csszengarden.com/017/017.css

  15. #15
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    90% of all layouts work best with a table structure and are easier to maintain and think about in terms of the compartamental nature of tables.

    Tables combined with CSS is the way to go. Easy to organize the layout and easy to customize the look and feel (dynamically by the user).

    http://www.inflash.com
    InFlash.com shows, games, greetings and more - you in?

  16. #16
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    Re: Choosing between Recommended code compliance and table based layouts

    Originally posted by bianster
    i'll like to know that you guys think of the W3C's recommendations for layout positioning and layouts that are based on tables. 1 thing that really bothers me is the fact the 90% of most visually impactful websites seem to use tables as their primary form of layout tool.
    your 90% figure would ring true to me a couple years ago but recently it seems most sites that impress me visually do conform to web standards. as for your decision, it really depends on the job, the client, the site and the audience. for instance, if you've never done standards based css layouts, there will be a learning curve for the first couple of sites you do using css. and that means it will take you more time. but if time is not an issue or you've gotten to a point where you can create your layout in css as quickly as you can with tables then i see no reason not to go with a css layout (unless you want ns4 users to see the exact same design as users with modern browsers).

    a site i'm currently building at work feeds modern browsers (ie5+, ns7, moz1+, opera6+, safari, konquerer, etc.) css and js through the use of @import and the dom while non-modern browsers receive only what they can handle. for instance, since ns1 doesn't recognize @import and doesn't support the dom, it receives un-styled content with no dom scripting.

    if creating website markup is part of your job then you definitely should learn css regardless of if you use it for this specific site. not only is the demand for css based layouts growing rapidly (last 2 jobs i quoted specifically asked for css layout) but once you start getting the hang of it, you'll want to use it all the time.

    Originally posted by mbannonb
    90% of all layouts work best with a table structure and are easier to maintain and think about in terms of the compartamental nature of tables.

    Tables combined with CSS is the way to go. Easy to organize the layout and easy to customize the look and feel (dynamically by the user).
    please take the above quote for what it is... an opinion. i don't know where that 90% number comes from but it's obviously made up since it has no basis in fact. with 6 years experience working with tabular layouts and 2 years experience with css layouts, i have found exactly the opposite. when it comes to ease of maintenance, there isn't even a comparison... css takes the cake and the icing.

    the "works best" comment confuses me.... "works best" for reducing markup and bandwidth? "works best" for seperating document structure from the layout/design? "works best" for what? i'm curious to hear one reason why a tabular layout would work better or be easier to maintain than a css layout.

  17. #17
    Retired Mod aversion's Avatar
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    Originally posted by OddDog
    www.hbfsolutions.com
    your site looks great in IE but in firefox, the fastest growing browser out there it fails to render any css, I've attached a screen shot.

    should be a simple fix but certainly one worth making.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  18. #18
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    I have been getting into CSS for layout and design and I love it. There's no turning back for me now. If you think that tables are easier or better than complete CSS layout, you just to lazy to really learn how to use and implement CSS properly.

    Edwyn

  19. #19
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    Originally posted by aversion
    your site looks great in IE but in firefox, the fastest growing browser out there it fails to render any css, I've attached a screen shot.

    should be a simple fix but certainly one worth making.
    i took a look at his site as well. my bet is because both stylesheets are linked with [rel="alternate stylesheet"]. firefox will only load those stylesheets if asked to (check the icon in the bottom left of ff). so aversion is right... simple fix.

  20. #20
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    CSS BOOK

    For those who have been using CSS on a regular basis.. where have you leraned it and what books do you recommend purchasing. There are a few on Amazon I have been seconds away from purchasing and this conversation has pushed me to finally do it. Just curious what people choose as top choice?

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