Should President Bush Resign?

[SpockBert]

I reckon most lads will suffer more on their stag do's than the people in those pictures.


I bet those Mirror ones will be proved to be fakes soon anyway.

[gerbick]

be honest spocky... you were a tad turned on, were you. smiling chicks and hoods got to you, didn't it?

[Ask The Geezer]

>>And those people need to be shot. Ahh...that's so disturbing.

I had the dubious honor of having to police the Adult section of one of the bigger Directories a couple years ago. There was a lot of abuse going on. Part of the job was to check on these sites to see what they were about.

All I can say is, "You just wouldn't believe whats out there".

[SpockBert]

Originally posted by gerbick
be honest spocky... you were a tad turned on, were you. smiling chicks and hoods got to you, didn't it?

hahahahah

yeah you got me mate

THANK YOU SIR..PLEASE MAY I HAVE ANOTHER ***SMACK** THANK YOU SIR...

whoops did i say that out loud?

[caught_thought]

There are two cd's of photos and some video recording of the prisoner abuse.I was watching sky news and the reporter said that the videos contained rape and murder.Don't know what his source was and wouldn't take his word on face value but it's yet to get uglyer...

[Ask The Geezer]

>>There are two cd's of photos and some video recording of the prisoner abuse.

It's probably already available on an Adult site somewhere.

[indivision]

Originally posted by caught_thought
There are two cd's of photos and some video recording of the prisoner abuse.I was watching sky news and the reporter said that the videos contained rape and murder.Don't know what his source was and wouldn't take his word on face value but it's yet to get uglyer...

link? i couldnt find that there.

[Kaco]

Originally posted by SpockBert
hahahahah

yeah you got me mate

THANK YOU SIR..PLEASE MAY I HAVE ANOTHER ***SMACK** THANK YOU SIR...

whoops did i say that out loud?

wow, i was expecting a "ma'am" not a guy.

man, spock, thats wild.

[caught_thought]

Originally posted by indivision
link? i couldnt find that there.

It was just aftermath talk on the Rummy congres hearing,so thers no link to it.We'll all just have to wait till they publish the stuff.

[Hellsbellboy]

Originally posted by aversion
exactly, there is just no excuse for what happened.

but, the reality is these things do happen even in the most professional armies, and the measure of it is how that army deals with those problems and the cause of them.

I imagine these kids put in charge of these prisons had little training or resources in what they had to do, afterall this was a civilian jail, not something I imagine they train for in basic, and I doubt there has been the time or resources to train them for this duty. It was just an 'accident' waiting to happen. I hear that the iraqis would frequently riot and I'm sure the soldier guards were under a lot of pressure. Letting off steam by torturing and murdering inmates is not the answer. The army should have recognised the situation and acted. One officer who used to be in charge of one of these prisons said he and his colleagues had repeatedly warned the higher ups that this was a powder keg.

The coalition is very stretched in iraq, both for manpower and resources, what happened in thos jails is ultimately the responsibility of the individuals but the situation that created them is the responsibility of an army that's stretched too thinly. You'd think they would be better off hiring mercenary 'guards' (and I know there are many ex prison guards who sell their skills) and running the prisons almost as private jails, rather than using young untrained probably scared soldiers. Neither is an ideal solution, it's one of those situations where there is no ideal solution possible.

I don't know if they were "just kids".. these were reservist in the US Army who are Military Police, and yes they were trained to handle prisoners. The situation was created by lack of leadership.. pure and simple. In the case that is well known, the 1 Star should have been aware what her people under her command was during. Period. Even if Military Intelligence, CIA, or the civilian Interogators were telling the MPs to harrass and abuse the prisoners, those were her people, who she is responsible for, and who are under her command, they weren't under MI command, or CIA command.
At least one of the guys charged is a Federal Prison Guard, God knows what the others are in their civilian occupiation, some could be cops or other people of authoridy in civilian life. The stupidist thing I have heard coming out of those that are under investigation is that they were ordered to do it.. But no one is obligated to follow a unlawful order such as abusing prisoners. It's the same type of defense that the Germans tried to use at Nurenberg that they killed Jews etc cause they were ordered too.

[aversion]

They were trained to handle POWs but running a prison on a day to day basis, full of civilian prisoners, is a very different thing.

As I mentioned in a post above, senior staff at these prisons had already been complaining about the lack of training and resources.

[Hellsbellboy]

Perhaps they have, but I know when they first got there they were offered training and they turned it down. I don't think it takes much special training to know right from wrong, or that what they were doing was wrong. Sounds like a cop out answer to me.. One of the jobs of MPs is running Prisons.

[aversion]

It's not an answer to anything.

[Ask The Geezer]

Well, George drove by the house here about an hour ago. He's down at the baseball field now, talking. Lot of people lined the roads, sitting in lawn chairs, waiting for him to drive by. There doesn't seem to be any boo's from the crowd. The speech just ended, and he hardly mentioned god at all.

[webcorps]

not to get off track, but did anyone catch the "code pink" group heckling Rumsfeld? It was pretty funny.

[Hellsbellboy]

Originally posted by aversion
It's not an answer to anything.

my bad, thought it was your answer.

[aversion]

nope, just one of many factors I mentioned.

[Robybob]

(Audiotape, April 18, 1971):

MR. CROSBY NOYES (Washington Evening Star): Mr. Kerry, you said at one time or another that you think our policies in Vietnam are tantamount to genocide and that the responsibility lies at all chains of command over there. Do you consider that you personally as a Naval officer committed atrocities in Vietnam or crimes punishable by law in this country?

SEN. KERRY: There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50 calibre machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare, all of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions and all of this is ordered as a matter of written established policy by the government of the United States from the top down. And I believe that the men who designed these, the men who designed the free fire zone, the men who ordered us, the men who signed off the air raid strike areas, I think these men, by the letter of the law, the same letter of the law that tried Lieutenant Calley, are war criminals.

(End audiotape)

Some are asking for Bush's resignation, someone who was far removied from the incidents. Wouldn't it be far more appropriate for John Kerry, who admits in taking part first hand in commiting war atrocities, to resign from the presidential campaign?

[XU1]

Originally posted by Robybob
[B](Audiotape, April 18, 1971):

MR. CROSBY NOYES (Washington Evening Star): Mr. Kerry, you said at one time or another that you think our policies in Vietnam are tantamount to genocide and that the responsibility lies at all chains of command over there. Do you consider that you personally as a Naval officer committed atrocities in Vietnam or crimes punishable by law in this country?

SEN. KERRY: There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50 calibre machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare, all of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions and all of this is ordered as a matter of written established policy by the government of the United States from the top down.

Brilliant one Rob.....some people have very short memories.

Tony

[Hellsbellboy]

I dont' know if this was mentioned.. but the "girl" seen in alot of the pictures is named Pfc. Lynndie England.

FORT BRAGG, N.C. - Army Pfc. Lynndie England, shown in photographs smiling and pointing at naked Iraqi prisoners, was charged Friday by the military with assaulting the detainees and conspiring to mistreat them.

England, 21, faces four allegations, according to a statement from the XVIII Airborne Corps at Fort Bragg.


She is accused of "assaulting Iraqi detainees on multiple occasions;" conspiring with another soldier, Spc. Charles Graner, to mistreat the prisoners; committing an indecent act; and committing acts "that were prejudicial to good order and discipline and were of nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces through her mistreatment of Iraqi detainees."


The charges must be taken up in Article 32 investigation, a process similar to a civilian grand jury, before they can be sent to a general court-martial.


No lawyer has been appointed yet to represent England, according to Col. Billy Buckner, a spokesman for the division. She may also hire a civilian lawyer, he said.


England was reassigned to a military police unit at Fort Bragg when she returned from Iraq and will continue her duties, the Corps statement said.Her family said Friday that she is four months pregnant with Graner's child.


Both were members of the 372nd Military Police Company, based in Cumberland, Md.