Just Ripped For Over $2000 USD

[C.Schwalbach]

Hey,

I have a quick question...What if you had taken the money out of your account? They would put -$2199 in there? Couldn't you just..not use that account afterwards? Take all the money out of the bank account? What would they do then? Truly, it seems unfair to me because if they can't tell the funds are fradulent, then it is their own fault. They should make sure they are real before they tell you the are real.

[uglynora@rcn.com]

Originally posted by flipshark
Under terms and conditions I am liable.

However, I'm not giving up over 2 grand without some sort of a fight.

This comment is exactly the sort of thing that is wrong with our world today...No one wants to take responsibility for their actions…..
Why won't you go down without a fight? Because things didn’t go your way?

When you signed up for this account, you read the agreement and signed it. It's a legal contract. Why do you think it doesn't apply to you all of a sudden because you got the short end of the stick? Did you not read it before you signed it? Well, that’s your fault. Did you read it but not understand it and not ask a qualified person to explain it to you? Again, that would be your fault. You said yourself that according to the terms of service you are liable to pay this back, so I don’t understand what the problem is…pay it back. Don’t use PAYPAL ever again and move on. Be an adult and live up to your obligations.


I don’t mean this comment as a flame or to be insensitive to your plight. But, the fact remains that you signed the contract that explains what would happen in circumstances such as this….I would consider this a good life lesson for you.

[johnie]

The propper recourse is to go to the person he sold the work to and demand the money.

I would take issue with PayPal saying the funds are there and then 3 weeks later retract the funds. It shouldn't have taken them more than 1 week at most to verify the funds.

[Loyal Rogue]

If it's a stolen credit card number then the victem might not notice it until the next month's statement arrives which could be more than 3 weeks.

[Ultima Designs]

Don't let PayPal take anything out of your bank account. You never authorized them to do so, so you can dispute the charge.

[erova]

Originally posted by Ultima Designs
Don't let PayPal take anything out of your bank account. You never authorized them to do so, so you can dispute the charge.

doubtful. it's probably right there in their terms of service.

anyway, i can't believe someone would use a fraudulent credit card for web work.

if i was a crook and had a stolen card number, i'm thinkin of a whole lot of other things i'd do than drop 2k on some web stuff.

how long did the project take? did this guy just assume he'd have a new stolen number when it came time to pay up? this is definitely fishy.

[coolmo-d]

When your client asked you to clone eBays, PayPals, and Amazons registration pages, that should have been your first tip off.

[PAlexC]

Originally posted by erova
doubtful. it's probably right there in their terms of service.

But you can always tell your bank / credit card to stop payment, that you're disputing it. Your bank doesn't care what agreement you have with PayPal, you say stop, they stop. Of course PayPal can then sue for the money, but they can't force your bank to release it without a lawyer.

The fact that PayPal's default agreement is set up as such really sucks, I'm sure most people don't read it, even though they should. You should never be liable for someone else's fradulent activity. PayPal is insured, they'd get re-imbursed anyway. Cheap bastards.

[erova]

Originally posted by PAlexC
But you can always tell your bank / credit card to stop payment, that you're disputing it. Your bank doesn't care what agreement you have with PayPal, you say stop, they stop. Of course PayPal can then sue for the money, but they can't force your bank to release it without a lawyer.

The fact that PayPal's default agreement is set up as such really sucks, I'm sure most people don't read it, even though they should. You should never be liable for someone else's fradulent activity. PayPal is insured, they'd get re-imbursed anyway. Cheap bastards.

oh yeah i agree. i guess i'm just being pessimistic after dealing with customer service clones (or clowns, you decide).

once some jackass rang up close to 400 bones on one of my cards at kinkos (kinkos!?!?!) and even that was a hassle, even though any normal person would think it's an open and shut case.

[flipshark]

I have no idea what happened but I just received this email today:

Dear Ryan *****,

PayPal has concluded our investigation of the following Buyer
Complaint:


------------------------------
Complaint Details
------------------------------

Transaction Date: May 24, 2004
Transaction Amount: -$2199.00 USD
Case Number: PP-***-***-306
Buyer's Name: ***************
Buyer's Email: *************.com


Because the buyer has reported that the dispute has been amicably
resolved, this case has been closed.

Thank you for your cooperation with our investigation.

Sincerely,

Protection Services Department


Please do not reply to this e-mail. Mail sent to this address will not be received and therefore, not answered. For assistance, log in to your PayPal account and click the "Help" link in the footer of any page. If your inquiry is regarding a claim, log in to your PayPal account and click the pink Service Center link.

My account balance is back to normal. I haven't had any contact with the buyer (he won't respond) but my funds have been returned to me.

I've already transferred from USD to CAD and withdrew to my bank account just in case. I will use escrow for big payments from now on though.

Guess this goes to show, you shouldn't use online services unless you know you are protected first.

[aversion]

Originally posted by johnie
I would take issue with PayPal saying the funds are there and then 3 weeks later retract the funds. It shouldn't have taken them more than 1 week at most to verify the funds.

right, and with most financial institutions the funds wouldn't have been credited until they had been 'cleared'. The fact that they cleared them and gave them to you indiciates to me an implicit suggestion that the funds have cleared.

Most banks, credit card companies have insurance for this kind of thing, and would not charge you anything once they have cleared the transaction.

I guess play pal doesn't work that way, I will certainly never be using them for anything important. Seems to me that paypal is just throwing money around without bothering to clear anything, yet still expecting to be able to manipulate your account? BS. They need some kind of escrow if they're going to be dealing with stuff like this.

[flipshark]

That probably explains the multi million dollar class action lawsuit that has been filed against them.

I got my money back though, and now know better for the next time.

[Loyal Rogue]

Apparently from the reply that Paypal sent you, this wasn't a case of funds not clearing or stolen cc/paypal account.

Your customer lodged a complaint (possibly in error?) about the sale and paypal froze the amount until the complaint was investigated.
Obviously the customer made a mistake and it looks like from the time you posted yesterday that it took less than 24 hours to correct the mistake.

Thank you for the learning experience as my clients and I use paypal all the time.
I think we should all take this as a word to the wise.

[SpockBert]

Originally posted by C.Schwalbach
Hey,

I have a quick question...What if you had taken the money out of your account? They would put -$2199 in there? Couldn't you just..not use that account afterwards? Take all the money out of the bank account? What would they do then? Truly, it seems unfair to me because if they can't tell the funds are fradulent, then it is their own fault. They should make sure they are real before they tell you the are real.

You know I was just about to ask that myself. I've thought about getting a paypal account but heard too many horror stories to put me off doing it. If I did do it I'd probably have another seperate account set aside just for paypal and keep it empty all the time when not buying or transferring funds immediately after getting paid.

Does make me wonder like the guy above what would have happened in that situation.

Glad you got your money back mate

[flipshark]

Originally posted by SpockBert
You know I was just about to ask that myself. I've thought about getting a paypal account but heard too many horror stories to put me off doing it. If I did do it I'd probably have another seperate account set aside just for paypal and keep it empty all the time when not buying or transferring funds immediately after getting paid.

Does make me wonder like the guy above what would have happened in that situation.

Glad you got your money back mate

Well they cannot withdraw funds from your bank account or credit card without permission. So yes it would show as a negative balance however you would still be responsible for it.

I have verified my paypal up the ying-yang so if I owed them 2000+ I'm sure they would contact me to make me pay them.

So far I've confirmed my:
*credit card,
*bank account,
*phone (this is a new thing where they call you and you enter in a code on a touchtone phone),
*address (via mail),
*I got the paypal credit card and paypal debit card (both)
*they have copies of my utility bill and passport
*plus I sell over 10 things a week on ebay through them

When they have this much on you, you can't really hide or skip out on the bill.

[N_R_D]

So if paypal is so shadey, which it seems like they have the right to be, what would you guys say to go with. Me and my partners use paypal.......is there a better way.

And Flip.....glad to hear about the funds coming back!

[XcVbSdRw]

many people here are completely missing the point. this has absolutely nothing to do with PayPal!

any time you set up merchant services to accept credit card transactions (whether through PayPal, VISA, or whoever) you run the risk of chargebacks.

a chargeback is what occurs when the company providing the merchant services negates a previous transaction and withdraws funds from your account to cover the transaction. It can be because a) a fraud has been committed or b) the holder of the credit card simply disputes the charge you levied against their credit card.

and in my personal experience, they DO have the right to withdraw the money from your account and NO you cannot tell your bank to prohibit them from doing so. basically you agreed to this or else the company providing your merchant services would never have given you the account in the first place!

as a consumer using a credit card you have lots of rights like disputing charges, only paying $50 for fraudulent charges, etc. however, as a merchant you have responsibilities rather than rights! if you accept a transaction, then you are responsible for making a good faith effort to verify that it is a good risk. if you don't and it fails you will likely be left holding the bag.

my company has accepted credit cards for many years and we deal mainly with corporations. in all that time we have had only a single chargeback and it was because the customer didn't recognize our name on his credit card statement. as soon as he was notified he agreed to the charges however, once the chargeback process was underway it was easier to simply accept the chargeback and recharge his credit card! oh, and did I mention there was a fee that we had to pay to cover the chargeback?

bottom line, if you are a small company and wish to accept credit card payments from other small companies or individuals you should be aware you are at greater risk for getting scammed. you can protect yourself by simply not accepting credit cards but if you lose more business this way it might not be worth it. if you find you truly need to accept credit cards then you should do everything possible to eliminate confusion with your legit customers and to verify as well as possible those you don't know. and accept the fact that you will probably have to accept a % of chargebacks as a cost of doing business.

[ViRGo_RK]

You have really bad luck with this kind of thing, don't you.