Morality and Ethics and Religion

[flipshark]

I have to say I was extremely offended earlier today when talking to one of my "religious" friends.

Basically he is quite religious (to say the least), whereas I myself am an atheist.

Anyway basically the conversation goes something like this..

Him: Out of the blue "you're an atheist right?"
Me: "Yes"
Him: "Okay good, I need to ask you a question.. A few of my friends play poker every thursday, last week about $2000 was what the pot was up to.. Anyway, I can deal really well from the bottom of the deck, so if you played next week would you mind if we cheated and took the whole pot??"
Me: "The whole $2000"
Him: "Yeah"
Me: "What do you need me for"
Him: "Well I can't steal their money, but your an Atheist so it doesn't matter".
Me: "What"
Him: "We can split it later 50/50"

So first, is it a common assumption amongst religious people that atheists (one who does not believe in a creator god) have no morals or ethics, just because they have no religion??

I mean I thought it was common sense that just because I am an atheist, I am not a murderor, theif, etc.

Second, do you believe you can have ethics without religion?

Anyway, I just want your opinion. Let's try and keep this debate to ethics and where they come, as oppose to attacking religion (I left out what religion my friend was on purpose)

[donbotsini]

of course you can have ethics without religion, the idea you might go to hell shouldnt be your motivation to do good.

[flipshark]

So I guess we could ask what is the motivation to do good?

What's the difference between society's laws, moral laws, and religious laws.

[PAlexC]

Um...I don't see how his plan would absolve him from any guilt.

I think your friend is an idiot.

[nordberg]

i do good because it feels good.
why would i want to do bad...religion or not?
there have been MANY religious people that have done unethical horrible things.

people make bad decisions - whether they have ethics/religion or not.

this reminds me of the sienfeld episode where puddy makes elaine steal his neighbors paper since she's already going to hell...

[flipshark]

Originally posted by PAlexC
Um...I don't see how his plan would absolve him from any guilt.

I think your friend is an idiot.

Like nords said it's like the Seinfield episode.

I'd technically be the one stealing the money, he'd just be enjoying what I stole.

[flipshark]

Originally posted by nordberg
i do good because it feels good.
why would i want to do bad...religion or not?
there have been MANY religious people that have done unethical horrible things.

people make bad decisions - whether they have ethics/religion or not.

this reminds me of the sienfeld episode where puddy makes elaine steal his neighbors paper since she's already going to hell...

How exactly do you define good or bad then??

A lot of things that feel good aren't necessarily "good" right?

Do you think we are born with ethics, or a sense of right or wrong??
Or does it come through society? (Nature VS Nuture?)

sorry, just moved to a new house, wireless internet is all I have (no phone, tv, radio, etc.,) looking for a good debate to kill time

[PAlexC]

But he's the one cheating, and it's his idea. If anything he's more guilty.

Personally, I'm wary of people who are really into religion. Most of us are raised something and stick with it, even if nominally.

But I tend to keep away from people who drag it up in every conversation, and not as an intellectual discussion either. It's almost like an addicition with some people, and frankly it's annoying when they're pushing it on you. Especially in a bar. When you're trying to do jager shots. And they're sipping a glass of water.

[hurricaneone]

Originally posted by nordberg
i do good because it feels good.

But if you didn't have to face the guilt of any non-ethical actions, you'd be all over that, right nords?



Flipster, as PAlexC said, your friend's an idiot. If his take on religion is so warped, that he honestly believes it is merely the 'doing' that can be perceived as wrong, then he'd best go back to Sunday School for a refresher course.

[nordberg]

Originally posted by flipshark
sorry, just moved to a new house, wireless internet is all I have (no phone, tv, radio, etc.,) looking for a good debate to kill time

i'm at work, so you aren't gonna get it from me...

[nordberg]

and don't worry about going to hell...it will only FEEL like an eternity!

[flipshark]

Originally posted by nordberg
and don't worry about going to hell...it will only FEEL like an eternity!

Again, I'm an atheist so I don't believe in hell (outside of hearing britney spears sing without the visual aid to ease the discomfort)

Guess I'll have to hit miniclip.com, play fowlwords then

[breadlegs]

Originally posted by flipshark
So I guess we could ask what is the motivation to do good?

What's the difference between society's laws, moral laws, and religious laws.

The whole point of Christianity (if that is his chosen religion), is to follow and become more like Jesus. Once you take that on board and Jesus becomes the centre of your life, you have the help and guidance from him.

Jesus would never steal, or put a friend into the position of stealing for him.

Regarding the motivation to do good, a good Christian follows the teachings of Jesus as well as the Ten commandments.

This is not something that instantly happends though, its something to work towards.

Jesus was perfect and sinless.

We will never acheive that, or come anywhere close, but he can help us on that path (if you let him).

[TallGuyLittleCar]

Originally posted by flipshark
What's the difference between society's laws, moral laws, and religious laws.

depends on where you live.

Society laws generally evolve from religious laws that generally evolve from moral laws as population density increases.

[hurricaneone]

I would disagree that the goal of a Christian is to attempt to become more like Jesus.

That living a moral and decent life can be related back to the selfless acts that Jesus is alleged to have effected is true, but it is only part of what constitutes Christian life, which as a whole, is based on the faith of believing Jesus to be the Son of God and that God, not Man, is the controller of your destiny.

Flipshark, have you ever read any humanist literature? To sum it up, it's like Christianity but without the religious fervor, the need for faith, as it assumes that Man controls his own destiny in what is considered not a divine but a mechanical, natural Universe. Additionally, Man is born with a clear conscience (free of 'sin'), it is society which creates evil but as Man regains control, he himself has the power to change society and rid the world of evil.

Interesting stuff, if you don't go for the jump-in-the-deepend Christian viewpoint.

[DigitalOne]

I'm a Catholic, but I recognize there are idiots and jerks in my religion, as I recognize there are genuinely good people who don't believe in God.

Lately, I have been questioning things in my religion. For instance, my mother is a devout Catholoc, and she goes to Church every Sunday. I normally don't. What I have begun to question is this belief that if you go to Church, you are a good person. I don't agree with this. I'm sure there are murderers and thieves who have "morals" and feel the need to go to Church. Meanwhile, it is a common belief among most in religion that those who do not follow God or go to Church are evil, and will go to Hell. This belief aggravates me. I've begun to realize that perhaps I don't want to follow organized religion any longer. It's hypocritical. I want to follow something genuine, and right now, the Catholic church isn't. I believe in a Creator, but I don't think he meant for absolute worship, and those who didn't follow would be comdemmed, yet that is exactly what we are taught to believe.

So yeah, that probably makes no sense to anyone, but basically flipshark, I feel that there are just as many genuinely good people who don't have a religion as there are devout Catholics who are jerks, criminals, and immoral.

Meh.

[PAlexC]

DigitalOne, there are jerks everywhere.

I think you need a good Jesuit education.

While going to church, taking part in sacraments and praying is important, it means squat if you're still a big fat jerk.

God and Jesus, as we were taught by these liberal missionaries, are in what you do and how you treat other people. It's called a 'horizontal' view of God. Rather than seeing God as some being above you to be feared and worshiped, you see that your interactions with your fellow man here on Earth is what really counts. What do you do to help people less fortunate than you? How do you treat the people around you? That kind of stuff.

Seems like a much more practical and meaningful take on the purpose of Jesus's life than just throwing bible quotes at people and telling them they're going to hell. It's not our place to pass judgement on people. Besides, it's amazing to see how kindness really does spread.

[breadlegs]

Originally posted by hurricaneone
I would disagree that the goal of a Christian is to attempt to become more like Jesus.

That living a moral and decent life can be related back to the selfless acts that Jesus is alleged to have effected is true, but it is only part of what constitutes Christian life, which as a whole, is based on the faith of believing Jesus to be the Son of God and that God, not Man, is the controller of your destiny.

OK i agree that it is mainly based on the faith of believing Jesus to be the Son of God.

It is also based on the faith that Jesus lived a perfect life and died, in our place, on the cross.


I dont beleive that God controlls our destiny and I dont think many Christians do. I can still choose to go down the path that God doesnt want me to.

I beleive he has a plan, and once I learn to hear his voice I can fullfill that plan.

.

[breadlegs]

Originally posted by DigitalOne
I'm a Catholic, but I recognize there are idiots and jerks in my religion, as I recognize there are genuinely good people who don't believe in God.

agreed

[breadlegs]

Originally posted by PAlexC
It's not our place to pass judgement on people. Besides, it's amazing to see how kindness really does spread.

again. agreed.

kindness and love are far more powerfull than hatred.