Morality and Ethics and Religion

[yasunobu13]

Well, since this is continuing, I would like to respond.

He said evolution was a fact. I disagree, science disagrees.

First off, evolution is fact, and has been considered so since before christianity appeared on this earth. It's the theory of evolution that has yet to be pinned down. It may never be pinned down, but that does not mean that evolution does not exist.

Creationists have to be mistaken if those are their dates, but that doesnt disprove that we were created.

You should look around that site I linked to earlier, it's quite funny as long as you don't belive that dinosaurs are walking around with us today (something they 'proved' with a lovely photograph).

Again you are stating theories which are shaky and have no real proof.

Those theories have quite a bit of evidence to back them up. Some would argue that they would be proof only when they create life today, but that won't really happen any time soon. And I am not saying that these theories are the end-all-be-all to this discussion, I'm saying that there are convincing ways for these things to happen. You must understand that science is it's own biggest critic. These theories are always changing and being refined as new evidence comes around.

Yes there are many people saying that it is impossible!

I misspoke. Many say that it is impossible, but those that are conducting research in the area do not. (And not just to keep their jobs)

As for your scenerio involving advanced coding. Something that is man made like a program can't be considered as hints that show it is possible already exist. Something naturally ocurring would have to be used, such as a moon.

Suddenly a new moon appears, but we don't know how yet. Does that mean that it was created? Or did it float over to our galaxy from a neighboring galaxy? Lets say, for 5 years this moon is studied and no one can figure out where it came from or how it got here. Does that mean that God did it? Some would say yes, others would say that there's no more proof that God did it than any other theory. The question is answered for those who belive, but until God leaves evidence that He/She/It infact created that moon and placed it there, the others will say that the question remains unanswered. 2000 years go by and technology advances to great extremes, but the moon question remains unanswered. Those who believe that God did it have their proof, the others still have no evidence that points to God doing it and no evidence of how exactly it happened. There are a few theories, convincing ones at that, but they can't proove them entirly.

Does that mean that God did it? The faithful say yes "It is the only logical alternative," others say that there is no proof that God did it. In fact, there is no proof whatsoever about how it happened so we can never say for sure. Neither side should be considered wrong until the absolute truth is known.

Now you say that a scientist has seen how a cell works and says that it has intelligent design and therefore we should say that God created it. But, just because it's designed well does not mean that a being created it. And until it is shown that it is God's handiwork by any argument stronger than "it must be," the scientific community will not state that as fact. Does that rule out the possibility of God? No, because the lack of evidence to prove that it is God's handiwork balences out the lack of evidence that is not God's handiwork. This is why the scientific community does not state that this is not the work of God.

Think of it as a mystery box, you can't say for sure that it holds a pencil, and you can not say for sure that it does not hold a pencil.


A big argument for God is that the conditions for life to exist are so great that it must have been created this way. I agree that the conditions are very great, but look at the size of the universe, so many planets, so many varying conditions, I'm not surprised that it only happened once if at all. Just because we are the results of a lucky planet does not prove that God made us.

But in the end, it is entirely pointless to have creationism vs. evolution debates. Why? because one does not contradict the other. Scientists say "life may have come about without a God, but we can't say for sure that it wasn't God since there is no evidence of a God creating us." Creationists say "Yes it was God." Scientists say, "But there is no proof that God did it, but we won't rule that out." Creationists say "Yes it was God." A cycle that has no end because the two sides are arguing different points. Scientists argue along the lines of proof and evidence, Creationists argue along the lines of faith. Niether can contradict the other.

[david petley]

Originally posted by Buckets

I dont know what you mean by sports, but freaks and aberrations...I dont see fish mutated by chemicals in their water or something as natural. Thats man's intervention. Nature by itself is perfect.

Buckets

Sport : Biology. An organism that shows a marked change from the normal type or parent stock, typically as a result of mutation.

...and I can assure you (as a qualified Horticultural Manager - for that is what my uni degree is in) that nature moves along mutating regularly without human intervention, as has done for many thousands of years, throwing 'sports', 'mutations', 'freaks'. Nature is not perfect, just that ill-fitting aberations don't last.

I guess you will find that really hard to accept if you do not believe in evolution.

Have you heard of the "Granny Smith" apple?

<edit> conflicting stories on how it came about, some say as a sport branch on a tree, others say from seeds from a French Crab Apple thrown away...whatever the story, the Granny Smith came from nowhere, with no human intervention.</edit>

dp

[asun2art]

A big argument for God is that the conditions for life to exist are so great that it must have been created this way.

Actually, Geology tells us a couple of very important things. First of all, you need a long period of temperature stability. That's a geological phenomenon. A very finite set of conditions on this planet has allowed us to have liquid water for four billion years. We never went above 100°C. We never went below 0°C for long periods of time. That, for four billion years, is a rare thing.

Secondly, the impact rate is also something that causes species to go extinct. Sixty-five million years ago, millions of dinosaurs were suddenly wiped out by an impact. And that same incident enabled mammals to become something more ambitious than a tree shrew.



</monday Morning philosophy class>

[yasunobu13]

Originally posted by asun2art
Actually, Geology tells us a couple of very important things. First of all, you need a long period of temperature stability. That's a geological phenomenon. A very finite set of conditions on this planet has allowed us to have liquid water for four billion years. We never went above 100°C. We never went below 0°C for long periods of time. That, for four billion years, is a rare thing.

Secondly, the impact rate is also something that causes species to go extinct. Sixty-five million years ago, millions of dinosaurs were suddenly wiped out by an impact. And that same incident enabled mammals to become something more ambitious than a tree shrew.



</monday Morning philosophy class>

Exactly my point, it could be just plain good luck that we ended up this way, but it could also have been planned this way by some creator. There is no more evidence for either case, and no less evidence for either case, so there's no point in arguing these points until more facts come along.

But, I digress, I thought I killed this thread once already.

[Ask The Geezer]

There is no more evidence for either case,

I see evedence of the impact theory everywhere I look. Of course, I live in the mid-west where there is a lot of limestone near the surface, and you can see the bodies of dead animals everywhere. To date, I have seen not the slightest shred of evidence that I can see, pick up, feel or do anything but wonder about [and scoff at] for the case of a superior being.

[yasunobu13]

Originally posted by iaskwhy
I see evedence of the impact theory everywhere I look. Of course, I live in the mid-west where there is a lot of limestone near the surface, and you can see the bodies of dead animals everywhere. To date, I have seen not the slightest shred of evidence that I can see, pick up, feel or do anything but wonder about [and scoff at] for the case of a superior being.

My rant was more towards evidence in the god exists / god doesn't exist argument, in which case there is only circumstantial evidence at best.

And I'm in Minnesota, in 9th grade we had a field trip to an area with a ton of exposed limestone where we got to look for fossils. I picked up a nice slab with a few fossil prints in it, pretty cool souvenir, especially when the science museum charges $20 for the same thing

[flipshark]

Who revived this tripe??

Sorry. Just got a few messages in my inbox, apparently I had email notifications on for this thread.

However just to add something. Evolution may not necessarily be luck but rather fate through probably. IE an inevitable conclusion or result of constant failures which result in one success.

Let me simplify. It's the old idea that 1 million monkeys on 1 million typewritters will eventually type out a shakespearian sonnet. It may take a second for the monkeys to type "A" at random. It could take a hour for them type randomly type "A mid" it could take 1000 years to type "A Midssummers Night Dream" and 100 000 trillion years to type the whole sonnet word for word. But eventually over time it would occur randomly in succession.

It is my belief that evolution is merely a result of time. Nobody cares about the number of times the monkeys type "superman", nor does anyone care how many species developed and died off before evolving.

As yasu said, there is no more evidence that god exists than there is that god doesn't exist. However there is no valid evidence to support the creation story, whereas there is a multitude of evidence supporting evolution.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to insult anyone. But if you tell me, after looking at all the evidence that there is absolutely no chance evolution occurred, I will likely think you're an idiot. If you tell me you believe in god, or that god caused evolution, well that is your belief and it no dumber than mine.

Just my 2 cents. Can we let this thread die now?

[asun2art]

"No offense Apu, but when they were handing out religions, you musta been out taking a whizz." -- Homer Simpson


"I'm gonna die! Jesus, Allah, Buddha - I love you all! -- Homer Simpson