Morality and Ethics and Religion

[XU1]

I once read pitbulls are genetically vicious animals because their skull puts pressure on the brain causing pain; the pain makes them angry and they are more likely to bite.

Unlike animals though, humans justify their actions, so that they avoid guilt associated with doing something wrong. IE "I am not taking the poker players money, I am outsmarting them by cheating, etc."

LOL.....I have never heard that one about pit bulls.....


humans can rationalise anything to justify their actions if they want, but in the basic "code" of things we all tend to have some conscious guidance of what is genearly right and wrong....

well thats my take on it anyway.

Tony

[XU1]

Originally posted by yasunobu13
I don't know what that is.

Its a descriptive term that means nothing...


Tony

[PAlexC]

Originally posted by XU1
If thats directed at me then:

Wasn't directed at you.

[yasunobu13]

Originally posted by XU1
Its a descriptive term that means nothing...


Tony

oh, I see?

anyway, are we back on topic yet?

[Ultima Designs]

Originally posted by former_muslim
tell that to the mods who close the threads!

Will you please stop criticizing everyone and everything? If you don't like the way we run it here, you don't have to stay. We have a great deal of respect for our mods - they spend countless hours of time when they could be making money doing work or whatever here keeping this place clean and tidy. Without them, Flash Kit wouldn't be Flash Kit.

[XU1]

Originally posted by PAlexC
Wasn't directed at you.

No worries...I didnt actualy think so....

Tony

[Naked inc.]

Originally posted by: flipshark
Do you think we are born with ethics, or a sense of right or wrong??

Originally posted by: XU1
humans can rationalise anything to justify their actions if they want, but in the basic "code" of things we all tend to have some conscious guidance of what is genearly right and wrong....

the soul is in the software...man or machine.

[former_muslim]

Ultima

Originally posted by Ultima Designs
Will you please stop criticizing everyone and everything? If you don't like the way we run it here, you don't have to stay. We have a great deal of respect for our mods - they spend countless hours of time when they could be making money doing work or whatever here keeping this place clean and tidy. Without them, Flash Kit wouldn't be Flash Kit.

ok, are you a mod? If not, please ZIP it! lol (the same "ZIP it" as in Austin Powers)

[breadlegs]

Originally posted by indivision
Man.

Cheating to win a 2k pot from 'friends'?

Money is an addiction, just like any other.

Your friend may need help

[Skorp|oN]

Originally posted by flipshark
Again, I'm an atheist so I don't believe in hell (outside of hearing britney spears sing without the visual aid to ease the discomfort)

Not even the visual aid helps in my case. So there IS a hell.

[another rant]
I don't have the patience to quote everyone I'd like to answer to, so I'll just throw it all together. Most of all I jumped at someone's post about genetical predisposition to unethical behaviour. In my opinion (and as far as my knowledge base goes), that's not at all true. Such a gene does not exist - so yeah, I believe that Nurture is entirely responsible. Perhaps that certain genes do help, but not in this way - for example, malformed chromozomes that might (even slightly) difform a person, phisically or mentally, may have this effect, but only as a result of the world's attitude towards that person. A person that has perceived the world as mean and cruel for a lifetime might not be much inclined towards the meaning of ethics or morals. But other than that... I can't think of many other effects genes might have on ethics/morals.

As for the religion bit... I'm an agnostic myself. And it would be sooo easy for me to condemn religious beliefs of all sorts, but I don't. IMO, religion appeared because of people's need for a sort of paternal figure. Not that that would be a bad thing. Early humans must have felt lost and abandoned, utterly alone - they needed this (much like a lot of people today still need it). But... human nature is not easy to understand. A man who does an "imoral" thing and profits from it may be quite happy with himself. When someone does it to him, he may realize it is wrong (and was wrong for him to do it in the beginning). But, given the opportunity, what would make him do it again, and profit again from it? And what would make him do the opposite?

Religion has been many times an instrument of control and offered many means to gain power. That has been exploited many times over the history, imoral as it might have been. Certain religions, of course, were meant to guide people, to show them what is right and wrong - even though one might say many of the moral and ethical principles they tought were completely and utterly wrong. But one common feature of most religions is FEAR. Almost all of them have teachings about a "hell" - either a collective one where all "imoral" people end up, or a hell we each create for ourselves through our actions, or even the hell of eternal reincarnation as a human being - that the believer must be afraid of and try not to get into. None if these alternatives seems fair to me - especially if it's hard to maintain a moral imagine of one's self, i.e. the moral teachings are hard to abide, even if they seem fair at a first glance.

By the way, the religious person in the first post of this thread really IS an idiot. Couldn't help myself. And atheists (and agnostics alike) are condemned by many religious people as imoral/unethical. It is merely an extension - "if they don't believe in God, then they don't believe in His teachings, which we KNOW to be moral, so they must be imoral by definition. Our definition." Such sophisms are common throughout the world, in every culture and age.

Ethical sense is hard to define. Sometimes it's hard to discern correctly whether a certain action is ethical or not. But it's something we learn. By example, by common deduction, by learning - whatever the means, it's something we aquire. That, of course, is the opinion of an agnostic. I would be curious to hear what a deeply religious person would have to say about this, though. It's truly useless to ask why God, in His might, has not provided each and everyone of us with such moral principles, and instead chose to let us learn by trial and error - because, after all, no matter what some might say, that is the only way we REALLY learn to discern bad from good: by experiencing it, directly or indirectly.

But all these conundrums were debated by people far more intelligent than me over and over again, people who have made a living by asking questions and then trying to answer them - philosophers, I think they are called - and since they haven't gotten to a definitive answer, I doubt I ever will. Questions on morals stand at the cornerstone of philosophy. And much like with any other philosophical questions, I doubt there will be satisfactory answers anytime soon.
[/another rant]

Disclaimer: the author begs the reader's pardon for yet another out-of-control, much too long, not really useful, meaningless and pointless rant. If anyone feels offended about this, feel free to roar your rage in an e-mail. Only several neurons were harmed during the production of this rant.

[phantomflanflinger]

You're all arguing about religion. You may lose. I never lose, here's why:

I believe that consciousness's existence "for itself - as itself", is the core of Sarte's existentialism. Not my theory, Andre Maurois first forwarded this bold yet some might say simplistic view in his 1966 book of critical essays, From Proust to Camus (now sadly out of print).

There must be Christians et al somewhere who can understand what Maurois meant, but I have never met one. I never lose an argument on religion, because I've yet to find anyone who can coherently answer my first statement.

I'd talk about Flash if I were you.

[david petley]

Originally posted by former_muslim
Ultima
ok, are you a mod? If not, please ZIP it! lol (the same "ZIP it" as in Austin Powers)

no but I am.....and I agree with Ultima Designs. we moderate our forums and expect users to comply with the agreement they signed...If they don't, we tell 'em to behave and if they ignore us, we kick their ass out of our house.

If you have a problem with any mod's action here, then send an email to someone who cares....in this case, the webmaster.

Keep whinging about mods in all your various posts here and expect to see them deleted or edited as irrelevant and plain annoying.

davidp.

[dabrewski]

Originally posted by DigitalOne

Lately, I have been questioning things in my religion. For instance, my mother is a devout Catholoc, and she goes to Church every Sunday. I normally don't. What I have begun to question is this belief that if you go to Church, you are a good person. I don't agree with this. I'm sure there are murderers and thieves who have "morals" and feel the need to go to Church. Meanwhile, it is a common belief among most in religion that those who do not follow God or go to Church are evil, and will go to Hell. This belief aggravates me. I've begun to realize that perhaps I don't want to follow organized religion any longer. It's hypocritical. I want to follow something genuine, and right now, the Catholic church isn't. I believe in a Creator, but I don't think he meant for absolute worship, and those who didn't follow would be comdemmed, yet that is exactly what we are taught to believe.

Sounds far too familiar, I believe in a Creator, but don't believe in organized religion. I get that from my mom, about going to church because it makes you a better person.

[issamneo]

i think that this discussion will conduct you to a wall

[flipshark]

Originally posted by Skorp|oN
Not even the visual aid helps in my case. So there IS a hell.

Guess your waiting for the now 18 year old Olsen Twins to get out of rehab then

Originally posted by Skorp|oN

[another rant]
I don't have the patience to quote everyone I'd like to answer to, so I'll just throw it all together. Most of all I jumped at someone's post about genetical predisposition to unethical behaviour. In my opinion (and as far as my knowledge base goes), that's not at all true. Such a gene does not exist - so yeah, I believe that Nurture is entirely responsible. Perhaps that certain genes do help, but not in this way - for example, malformed chromozomes that might (even slightly) difform a person, phisically or mentally, may have this effect, but only as a result of the world's attitude towards that person. A person that has perceived the world as mean and cruel for a lifetime might not be much inclined towards the meaning of ethics or morals. But other than that... I can't think of many other effects genes might have on ethics/morals.

Actually I think you just paraphrased what I said, So I can't exactly argue against it.

Basically though I was saying some genes could make you more likely to act morally or immorally, no gene actually causes immorality or morality.

Pitbulls may be more likely to be violent than a golden retreiver. That does mean you can't have a mean golden retreiver or a super friendly pitbull. You treat any dog like crap and it will bite someone. You treat any dog kindly and it should be kind also

However due to genes, one could argue that of 1 GoldR and 1 PittB raised in the same envioronment, the PittB is more likely to be violent.

As for humans, serial killers don't see what they do as wrong, that's why they keep doing it.

The gene theory makes sense in a way, because two brothers can be raised badly by the same parent/s and still end up with one a serial killer and one a doctor.

Though I may not believe this, I am looking for a debate till my TV gets here

[Archimage]

The gene theory makes sense in a way, because two brothers can be raised badly by the same parent/s and still end up with one a serial killer and one a doctor

That may be the case for 1 set of brothers but it is in no way representative of Humanity in general.

I wonder if Dr. Harold Shippman had a Brother?(Explainations upon request)

[flipshark]

Originally posted by Archimage
That may be the case for 1 set of brothers but it is in no way representative of Humanity in general.

I wonder if Dr. Harold Shippman had a Brother?(Explainations upon request)

Explaination requested

No but you take 1000 kids molested by priests (not trying to start a religious debate)

All the kids are orphans, all raised by the church (nuns, fathers, etc) 100 become normal adults, 200 become scarred adults, 300 become antisocial to the point of nonfunctioning, 400 become molesters themselves.

If such a deviation exists, it shows that something other than circumstances (like ability to deal with stress which is partially genetic) is causing the variance.

[former_muslim]

DigitalOne

Meanwhile, it is a common belief among most in religion that those who do not follow God or go to Church are evil, and will go to Hell. This belief aggravates me.

That was one of the main reasons I left Islam too. The right way is humanism, commonsense. God might exist, but he's not any God in any religion. Even if God exists, he doesnt effect my life in *any* way. If he did, I would pray to him right now to give me the ability to fly, but he doesnt. He's deaf and meaningless to me. Its just evolution, we are here just like that, random. Huge universe, evolution, etc. Its good to hear that you're questioning your beliefs. Eventually, everyone will be either athiest or agnostic. There are 850 million of us in the world, increasing.

[yasunobu13]

Originally posted by former_muslim
Eventually, everyone will be either athiest or agnostic. There are 850 million of us in the world, increasing.

That, or they can just stop trying to force their religion down other's throats

[former_muslim]

Right on! Like Christians saying that if we're not saved by Jesus, we'll burn in Hellfire, or Muslims saying if we dont accept Islam, we'll burn in Hellfire. This is all forcing religions down everyone else's throats.