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Thread: 72% of Bush supporters still believe Iraq had WMD

  1. #41
    Banned indivision's Avatar
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    On topic:

    Technically speaking, WMD was found in Iraq. The Duelfer report says that no significant program was found. The posted PIPA poll asks if "Iraq had actual WMD" which is true ( at least 50 old, left-over Sarin gas warheads were found ). Ironically, I believe that fact is also included in the same report.

    Maybe the Bush supporters just read the report?
    Last edited by indivision; 10-24-2004 at 10:20 PM.

  2. #42
    Banned indivision's Avatar
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    Originally posted by iaskwhy
    I grew up being brainwashed about all that pinko commie crap. Communism is just like Democracy. Either or both can be bad, and they can both be good. Against all popular belief to the contrary, China has done fairly well under communism, while America and a large part of the rest of the world has gone to hell under democracy. Just look around. It's not the dogma, it's who's feeding it to you that matters.
    That's highly relevant since it was China that bolstered North Korea in an effort to spread Communism. I'm sure that the South Koreans who fled for their lives as Communists marched south, burning entire towns as they went, would have something to say about it. But, I see your point. I'm not saying that a form government is something that can be evaluated in the same terms as human conduct. But, I'm sure you would agree that much worse things have been done in the name of Communism than Democracy. Thus, there were legitimate fears in that time.

  3. #43
    FK's Geezer Mod Ask The Geezer's Avatar
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    But, I'm sure you would agree that much worse things have been done in the name of Communism than Democracy.
    Don't take me wrong. I firmly believe in a democratic form of government. But in just my lifetime, I have seen it subverted to something that was for the people, mostly, to something that is for big business and making more money for the already filthy rich.

    But let's go back to before the Korean war of 1950. China was controlled by warlords and crooked leaders who did nothing to help or protect the people it was lording it over. The people got fed up with it and made some changes. A majority of the people, not just a few, so it wasn't what you'd call a takeover by foreigners.

    But again, look around. Democracy in America today is absolutly nothing like democracy in america just a couple generations ago. Go ask your grandpa. Just my opinion, but I honestly don't think democracy as we've been use to here, will work when the population goes over a certain number. For instance, try and imagine China's billion people getting good government under the kind of government we have in the US today. We're not getting good government now, with less than one third that number.

  4. #44
    Originally posted by iaskwhy
    For instance, try and imagine China's billion people getting good government under the kind of government we have in the US today. We're not getting good government now, with less than one third that number.
    I can only imagine how messed up their voting process would get.

  5. #45
    Banned indivision's Avatar
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    Originally posted by iaskwhy
    China was controlled by warlords and crooked leaders who did nothing to help or protect the people it was lording it over.
    Another similar example is that there are towns in Russia that currently have rationed electricity (a few hours each day) while the same towns had it 24/7 under Stalin. But, considering that Stalin is also responsible for the death of 20 million people, I think it's understandable that the government he called the solution was something others were afraid of.

    I also agree that Democracy has deteriorated in the US, even over just a few generations. Government programs have become so bloated with such vast populations feeding off of them that we are starting to resemble socialism. But, I think Democracy is more accomodating to larger populations. This is the major flaw of Communism. As populations get very large, the expense to maintain discipline and a military state exceeds the amount of production that the working class is willing to commit to for a rationed reward. The evidence in China now is that they are necessarily becoming more Democratic.

    But, I definitely agree that no government can succeed without popular support of the people.
    Last edited by indivision; 10-24-2004 at 10:48 PM.

  6. #46
    FK's Geezer Mod Ask The Geezer's Avatar
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    The evidence in China now is that they are necessarily becoming more Democratic.
    I agree with what your saying, but take that quote above. A serious question. Have you noticed that american democracy is beginning to resemble some forms of communism? From what I've seen, one of the bad forms, where there are officials on the take and control over public utilities and so called leaders protecting each other when they get caught? So China may be a system to watch. There's no manifest destiny that says democracy is going to triumph. This war between communism and democracy is just as much a put up job as this spreading democracy excuse we've been getting for the last 50 years.

  7. #47
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    Originally posted by gerbick
    so where are they? any speculation(s)?
    Ask Hans Blix, he's the guy who was selected "not" to find them. So any where he did'nt look must be a good starting point.

    To be serious, I believe the whole aim was to topple Saddam and remove his "destabilising" influence on the Region. Opps! I am sure the WMD while a credible argument given the lack of Hard Intel was never the main reason, but more of an attempt to steamroller people into supporting the war.
    Imagine what would have been the response if he had posessed them and also if he had used them? Leaders of countries at best are a "balancing act" (have the clowns taken the circus over). If you get the little judgment calls wrong the country condems you, if you get the big ones wrong you are condemed by History & the World.

    Can anyone tell me why the US has so many "Experts" on a wide range of Political, Economic, Military & Foreign Affairs? Where were these know alls with their sage advice when the reasons for war were being discussed/proposed. It seems like it is safe to say "I told you so" after the "Excretea has Impacted the Ventilator", but you never catch them risking their highly valued reputations(and thus Market Value) by giving advice when it is needed, i.e. before the event.
    Last edited by Archimage; 10-24-2004 at 11:25 PM.
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  8. #48
    Banned indivision's Avatar
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    Originally posted by iaskwhy
    Have you noticed that american democracy is beginning to resemble some forms of communism?
    Yes. I'll let everyone guess who I think is responsible.

  9. #49
    Senior Member dlowe93's Avatar
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    quote:
    Originally posted by iaskwhy
    Have you noticed that american democracy is beginning to resemble some forms of communism?
    Originally posted by indivision
    Yes. I'll let everyone guess who I think is responsible.
    A growing and affluent middle-class? Probably the most moderating and stablizing element of any society.

    Something that is increasingly diminishing in our own country i might add…

    d.
    dlowe93

  10. #50
    Senior Member Hellsbellboy's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Subway
    North Korea has WMD and they have clearly shown that they are interested to use it when needed. Now I'm pretty sure the US is not going to start a war with NK exactly because they know they have WMD and would use it. If the US would have thought that there's a big possibility that Saddam could use WMD against their army in Iraq and possible kill a lot of them with those WMD, then they would have not started that war in the first place. That sayd, I'm pretty sure they where sure that Saddam has no or not much usable WMD to use against them or they would have not invaded Iraq to start with. I'm pretty sure the intern reasoning for invading Iraq was something else then what he want's to tell us.

    Fredi
    The US wasn't that worried about Saddam using WMD on Soldiers cause Soliders do have some protection.. meanwhile North Korea could very well use them on the general population of South Korea and or Japan.. Big difference there. Also Kim Jong seems to have different motivations then Saddam. Two different situations, which can be handled in two different ways.

    Everyone believed Saddam had WMD of some type.. Even his top Generals thought he had them. the report that was released showed that Saddam was waiting for sanctions to be lifted and then he would reconstitue those weapons.. leaving out Biological weapons cause he didn't find them useful..

    If Han's would have gone thru Iraq and found no WMDs and declared Iraq WMD free.. it wouldn't have taken very long before Europe and Russia started pushing to have the sanctions against Iraq. lifting them so they could cash in on their Oil for Food credits and go back to selling major weapon systems and other "goodies" to Iraq. With Iran building up a potiental nuclear weapons, you can bet Saddam would have jumped on board that also..

    What I find hypocritical is Russia is selling Iran the technology to make nuclear weapons.. yet no one complains to them about that.

  11. #51
    Senior Member Hellsbellboy's Avatar
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    Originally posted by shadowking
    I disagree with most of this. Had the terrorists been NKs we still would have invaded Iraq, it was jucy with oil and Bush had unfinished business there. Our troops were ready and expecting a chemical attack throughout the invasion.
    We were paying the NKs not to develop WMD, our realization that they were doing it behind our back was fairly recent.
    oh geez still on about the oil.. thought that myth was squashed a long time ago.. still beating a dead horse.

  12. #52
    Under the influence bvgroote's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Hellsbellboy
    oh geez still on about the oil.. thought that myth was squashed a long time ago.. still beating a dead horse.
    We can't truly 100% believe anything we are told, for all you know there IS no Iraq.

  13. #53
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    Originally posted by indivision
    Government programs have become so bloated with such vast populations feeding off of them...
    Government programs have become so bloated with such vast populations AND CORPORATIONS feeding off of them...

  14. #54
    curmudgeon swampy's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Hellsbellboy
    oh geez still on about the oil.. thought that myth was squashed a long time ago.. still beating a dead horse.
    the term is "flogging" a dead horse.

    sheesh, you crazy kids and your mixed metaphors. I blame popular music.
    "They're very much like scruffy pigs to look at, and they've got big, knobbly warts and lumps all over their long, hairy faces. They are very, very ugly indeed..."

  15. #55
    Banned indivision's Avatar
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    Originally posted by swampy
    the term is "flogging" a dead horse.

    sheesh, you crazy kids and your mixed metaphors. I blame popular music.
    hah. I've heard it used with 'beating'. Could it be an americanized version of the phrase?

  16. #56
    Banned indivision's Avatar
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    Originally posted by XcVbSdRw
    Government programs have become so bloated with such vast populations AND CORPORATIONS feeding off of them...
    If you mean corporations like the ACLU and tort lawyers, i agree. Otherwise, I think you are meaning that corporations avoid paying taxes? Largely, corporations pay for government programs.

  17. #57
    Information Architect Subway's Avatar
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    Originally posted by shadowking
    Spreading democracy is the real myth.
    Have to agree and what is democracy if nobody is honest anymore and you don't get the informations (or even the education to start with) you need to decide what is good and what not, who is the big liar and who not ... I meen currently someone could publish a truly intelligent and informed paper whith the whole thruth about the current situation and over 50% would not believe him when the current gov. says that he's a liar.

    Fredi
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  18. #58
    curmudgeon swampy's Avatar
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    the fact of the matter is that some societies just don't want democracy.
    "They're very much like scruffy pigs to look at, and they've got big, knobbly warts and lumps all over their long, hairy faces. They are very, very ugly indeed..."

  19. #59
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    Originally posted by indivision
    If you mean corporations like the ACLU and tort lawyers, i agree. Otherwise, I think you are meaning that corporations avoid paying taxes? Largely, corporations pay for government programs.
    if you look into it you'll find that by and large, the middle class pays for government programs. corporations, admittedly like some on the lower end of the socio-econmic scale, generally suckle at the teat of government. the tax breaks, shelters, outright giveaways, etc. for corporations are simply incredible. and yes, I know, they create the jobs. but, they don't do it for the public good, rather, they do it for their own profits. so they could pay more and still make profits and everybody wins!

  20. #60
    Information Architect Subway's Avatar
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    The biggest mistake in all those Iraq war mistakes? 380 tons of powerful explosives in the hand of terrorists: http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6323933/

    “On Oct. 10, the IAEA received a declaration from the Iraqi Ministry of Science and Technology informing us that approximately 350 tons of high explosive material had gone missing,” Fleming said.

    The Iraqis told the agency the materials had been stolen and looted because of a lack of security at governmental installations, Fleming said.

    “We do not know what happened to the explosives or when they were looted,” she told AP.

    Nearly 380 tons of powerful explosives that could be used to build large conventional bombs are missing from the former Al Qaqaa military installation, The New York Times reported Monday.

    The explosives included HMX and RDX, which can be used to demolish buildings but also produce warheads for missiles and detonate nuclear weaponry, the newspaper said. It said they disappeared after the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq last year.

    Iraq warned of missing material
    President Bush’s national security adviser, Condoleeza Rice, was informed of the missing explosives in the past month, the report said. It said Iraq’s interim government recently warned the United States and U.N. nuclear inspectors that the explosives had vanished.

    “Upon receiving the declaration on Oct. 10, we first took measures to authenticate it,” Fleming said. “Then on Oct. 15, we informed the multinational forces through the U.S. government with the request for it to take any appropriate action in cooperation with Iraq’s interim government.”

    “Mr. ElBaradei wanted to give them some time to recover the explosives before reporting this loss to the Security Council, but since it’s now out, ElBaradei plans to inform the Security Council today” in a letter to the council president, she said.

    In Washington, a senior adviser to presidential candidate John Kerry said Bush must explain how the loss of the explosives could have happened.

    “Today, the Bush administration must answer for what may be the most grave and catastrophic mistake in a tragic series of blunders in Iraq. How did they fail to secure nearly 380 tons of known, deadly explosives despite clear warnings from the International Atomic Energy Agency to do so?” senior adviser Joe Lockhart said.
    Oh my

    Fredi

    PS: What's the difference between Vietnam and Iraq? Bush had a plan for getting out of Vietnam.
    Last edited by Subway; 10-25-2004 at 07:33 AM.
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