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Thread: Too bad KM cannot handle 2D character animation

  1. #1
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    Too bad KM cannot handle 2D character animation

    Seems like a really neat app this Kool Moves,..but it's ashame that it can't be used for any serious 2D character animation. I've been looking for a professional 2D animation app that is professional and affordable!

  2. #2
    damned...
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    take a lookt at

    TheTAB

    But the price is not the same, and I didn't check actionscript possibilities...

  3. #3
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    More details of what you need that KoolMoves does not provide would be helpful.

  4. #4
    KoolMoves Moderator blanius's Avatar
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    Well for one the drawing tools are pretty basic...

    Those of us that are not graphic artists need a little help there. Some vector programs offer some nice features. Look at the drawing tools in 3dfa for example.

    One example is working with gradient fills. the way to adjust them is pretty lame, inputting a -+ number and then seeing what it looks like.

    On Drawing:
    Being able to cut a shape is needed.
    Making a shape with a hole
    Better interface for gradients


    On buttons:
    Need to be able to copy and paste while within a button state edit. Need to be able to onionskin when working on a movie within a button state(or at least allow pasting so I can paste the basic shapes over with out redrawing them, that way I can at least align to that shape then remove it)
    Last edited by blanius; 01-30-2005 at 12:09 PM.

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    Bob,..

    Hi. OK Bob,..to be fair,..I'll take a crack at this...

    1) a Nice drawing tool that has a variable line width option so one can use their Wacom and get a nice variable line. (Thick to thin)It can be set to respond to pen pressure or automatically create variable line widths dependding on your min and max settings. This is HUGE!!! Most 2D apps with the exception of the Tab,..have poor quality line repoduction such that when you make a curve,..the line is choppy and not smooth. This drives me nuts!! The Tab did it right as did PAP.

    2) The ability to accept imported scans and automatically vectorize the scan ( a quality vectorizing tool) allowing the image to now be totally editable.

    3) More audio/soundtrack conrols. A nice lip synch tool or plugin that simplifies the arduous task of creating lip syncs.

    3) a magnet tool that grabs a point on any line and allows you to freely move it, stretch it,..bend it etc.

    4) A nice automatic inbetweening (Tweening) feature for cutting down the time for some tedious tasks.

    5) The ability to save character designs with their properties as self contained clips or symbols so that they can be re-used over and over again.

    6) A quality camera panning tool. This is critical for serious animation.

  6. #6
    Relaxing tmoore935's Avatar
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    I know koolmoves works with a wacom tablet, but it doesn't have the pressure sensitivity ability.
    Any programming language is at its best before it is implemented and used.

  7. #7
    Degenerate and baise art thou. docree's Avatar
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    [COLOR=red] [/COLOR]

    Maybe I can help answer some of these...
    TDolce,
    1) a Nice drawing tool that has a variable line width option so one can use their Wacom and get a nice variable line. (Thick to thin)It can be set to respond to pen pressure or automatically create variable line widths dependding on your min and max settings. This is HUGE!!! Most 2D apps with the exception of the Tab,..have poor quality line repoduction such that when you make a curve,..the line is choppy and not smooth. This drives me nuts!! The Tab did it right as did PAP.

    KoolMoves does not draw lines with variable thickness, nor does flash. A line is basicly a pint moving as constant in any direction. The way that flash and these vector programs draw a line with variable thickness is that they actually draw the line as a shape with no outline.

    2) The ability to accept imported scans and automatically vectorize the scan ( a quality vectorizing tool) allowing the image to now be totally editable.

    KoolMoves does not have one of these, yet. It's simply due to the nature of KM's "engine" not having pixel mapping. In other words, KoolMoves does vector not pixel based animation. Except for the import of images as a texture/fill.

    3) More audio/soundtrack conrols. A nice lip synch tool or plugin that simplifies the arduous task of creating lip syncs.
    I don't know of a tool that has auto lip synch. It can be scripted though. Kind of like those site-pal things.

    3) a magnet tool that grabs a point on any line and allows you to freely move it, stretch it,..bend it etc.
    You can select a single point and drag it. Or, you can select multiple points from a shape a morph it a bit. Have you tried bones?

    4) A nice automatic inbetweening (Tweening) feature for cutting down the time for some tedious tasks.

    Kool Moves does that automatic. No need to draw each frame, just the keys.

    5) The ability to save character designs with their properties as self contained clips or symbols so that they can be re-used over and over again.

    Well, you can't save as symbol, yet. But you can save each character as a movie clip. Tip, save all character movieclips in one fun file. In that way you have one .fun file as a library.

    6) A quality camera panning tool. This is critical for serious animation.

    I believe that is in 3D animations. I don't see that in any 2D animation software. Tip, simple pan... Select all objects paned and drag them to the view after the pan.

    It takes some getting used to. But KoolMoves is a very creative tool for very creative people.


    blanius,
    On Drawing:
    Being able to cut a shape is needed.
    Making a shape with a hole
    Better interface for gradients

    A:Huh? Under edit menu. Ctrl+X...
    B: There are ways to do this but most use multiple shapes or masks.
    C:That interface is kind of old school, but it works. The only other interface I have seen is a sweep style interface.
    The user sweeps panels of R,B, and G. It was not a flash tool though and dificult to work with.


    On buttons:
    Need to be able to copy and paste while within a button state edit. Need to be able to onionskin when working on a movie within a button state(or at least allow pasting so I can paste the basic shapes over with out redrawing them, that way I can at least align to that shape then remove it)

    There is a much better way of doing buttons than that. A tutorial may be in the works.
    ______
    DocRee

  8. #8
    KoolMoves Moderator blanius's Avatar
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    blanius,
    On Drawing:
    Being able to cut a shape is needed.
    Making a shape with a hole
    Better interface for gradients

    A:Huh? Under edit menu. Ctrl+X...
    B: There are ways to do this but most use multiple shapes or masks.
    C:That interface is kind of old school, but it works. The only other interface I have seen is a sweep style interface.
    The user sweeps panels of R,B, and G. It was not a flash tool though and dificult to work with.
    No not cut as in remove but lets say a knife tool, a way to "slice" an object.

    multiple shapes and masks are not sufficient. Esp masks as you cannot mask editboxes, or clips with editboxes. etc... In 3dfa or flashMX I can make a object with a hole in a couple of seconds so it cannot be too hard to accomplish this in the flash engine. In KM I did manage to do it with mulitple shapes for my current site but it required a good deal of time and tweeking, esp if you use a bitmap fill.

  9. #9
    KoolMoves Moderator blanius's Avatar
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    Oh man I just found out that KM imports SVG fantastic....... I have several SVG tools and making holes is EASY.... Yeah baby

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    3) More audio/soundtrack conrols. A nice lip synch tool or plugin that simplifies the arduous task of creating lip syncs.
    I don't know of a tool that has auto lip synch. It can be scripted though. Kind of like those site-pal things.
    There is a plugin for Flash that now does this...LipSync MX.

    1) Variable lines
    A line is basicly a pint moving as constant in any direction. The way that flash and these vector programs draw a line with variable thickness is that they actually draw the line as a shape with no outline.
    That's fine. Not concerned really on "how" it's achieved but rather that it "be" achieved. I'd still like that feature then. The Tab has it, and Flash has a plugin that has it..Toon Titan. It is a must for an interesting line.


    5) The ability to save character designs with their properties as self contained clips or symbols so that they can be re-used over and over again.
    Well, you can't save as symbol, yet. But you can save each character as a movie clip. Tip, save all character movieclips in one fun file. In that way you have one .fun file as a library.
    That's cool!! I think that would suffice for now.

    6) A quality camera panning tool. This is critical for serious animation.
    I believe that is in 3D animations. I don't see that in any 2D animation software. Tip, simple pan... Select all objects paned and drag them to the view after the pan.
    There is a waaay cool plugin for Flash that does this and very well too.

    I think I revert back to my original point that KM is not a bad app. I'm not knocking it,..but if I personally were to use it or even think of using it for serious animation work,...I would really need to
    see these things (plugins or built ins) happen. To be fair to Bob too,..I think he would have to see the demand there before considering these features and perhaps these needs are very limited to a select few. Then I would just respectively have to use something else.

  11. #11
    undead creature necromanthus's Avatar
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    Re: Too bad KM cannot handle 2D character animation

    Originally posted by TDolce
    Seems like a really neat app this Kool Moves,..but it's ashame that it can't be used for any serious 2D character animation. I've been looking for a professional 2D animation app that is professional and affordable!
    You're talking too much about "flash plugins" ...
    For your information: flash plugins are not allowed and doesn't exist !
    Lipsync MX is a standalone app.
    For camera panning there're several standalone tools,flash components and scripts to deal with that.

    Now talking about animations and sound (Lipsync and so on):
    no need for external tool or advanced knowledges at all !
    Just design your animation(s),import the sound file(s) and create a simple AS routine based on several checkpoints and the sound.position instruction.
    That's all.

    Talking about "a vectorizing tool" for BMPs and JPGs:
    I had a discussion with BOB on this subject a long time ago.
    The answer: difficult and expensive !
    Don't forget: 40 USD for KoolMoves (and over 500 USD for Flash MX 2004) !
    But ... you have 5 great options for "Import Vector Graphic".
    So, import you image in some other app able to export as EPS,EMF,DXF,SVG and WMF.

  12. #12
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    2) The ability to accept imported scans and automatically vectorize the scan ( a quality vectorizing tool) allowing the image to now be totally editable.

    -> We have in-house expertise in this area and at some point may create such a tool but it would be a separate product.

    4) A nice automatic inbetweening (Tweening) feature for cutting down the time for some tedious tasks.

    -> As someone else said, KoolMoves does this automatically.

    5) The ability to save character designs with their properties as self contained clips or symbols so that they can be re-used over and over again.

    -> In Views > List of Shapes and List of Frames, you can copy/paste to a file which can then be archived and added later using File > Insert KoolMoves Movie.

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    LipSync MX may be a stand alone but it was designed to work with flash.

    OK Bob..then forget the vectorization tool. How about the line variable width tool. Can that be added to KM?

    Does anyone have any examples of character animation in KM? I'd like to see them.

    I undertsand about the price difference between KM and Flash. But having a few more features in KM such as I mentioned,...seemed worth mentioning anyway.


    td

  14. #14
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    OK Bob..then forget the vectorization tool. How about the line variable width tool. Can that be added to KM?

    -> As someone said, this is not trivial. It would have to be represented as a 2-D shape. I can't imagine a simple way for someone to edit it. I would have to look at the flash tool you mentioned that handles this.

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    Bob,..you're right,..I shouldn't have stated so "matter of factly" as it no doubt is a pretty big undertaking. It is worth it though in the creative sense.

    Here is the link for Toon Titan (a truly amazing little app) and look under Outline rendering and you will see how it can convert a straight line into a variable width line too.

    Also Moho which IS A VECTOR animation app also has this feature built in and NOT A PLUGIN.

    http://www.flashfilmmaker.com/index.php?toon_titan

    http://www.lostmarble.com/

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    Hi TDolce,

    I am very far from a professional artist but it has always held my interest. I discovered Koolmoves several years ago. Flash was (and is IMHO) too expensive and it had a steep learning curve I didn't care to deal with as an amateur.

    The file below was my first effort using Koolmoves and it was an attempt to link sound with animation. I used the free version as can be seen by the "KOOLMOVES" text across the page. It was initially drawn in "XARA" but animated entirely in Koolmoves. I have posted this before as Bob and some of the long time "regulars" may recall.
    Voice/Animation

    This 2nd file is about the same age but drawn entirely in Koolmoves. This was my 1st attempt at getting a "running sequence" working and is a bit crude looking but that is more a reflection of my goal (and skill level) rather than Koolmoves capabilities. This is especially true now that Koolmoves has the ability to make finer anti-aliased lines.
    Runner Test

    No action scripting was used in either file. I find Koolmoves to be a remarkable program.
    Last edited by Bob C.; 02-02-2005 at 05:51 PM.

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    Bob.

    Thanks for sharing! You are the first to actually show me something in the character animation arena! How long did the fast walk cycle take you to create? I think I may have given the false impression that I was a big FLASH fan! No way! It's very expensive and it too has some shortcomings. Listen,...what I have been looking for is a quality 2D animation program that allows the artist to focus on his/her creativity and not the GUI and technical shortcomings of the software program. Variable line width is a big deal for me,..but only if I have to draw directrly in the host program. I use Xara X1 and THAT is my app of choice.

    If I can draw in there and simply animate it in KM,..that might work. The problem comes in the transfer of files. I did a test with a character I created in Xara. I saved it as a .wmf and when it imported into KM it was not bad. EXCEPT that it placed an ugly outline around my character. Is this the fault of the .wmf conversion. Xara or KM? Who knows. But it definately was a problem. The emf file extension never worked nor did the .eps.

    What format did you export out of Xara in before you improted it into KM?

    I think KM is close,..bt I have to confess,..I just don't see it handling an elaborate 2D animation sequence with sound etc. Again,..this is just from looking at it on the surface.

  18. #18
    Senior Member FLASHPULSE's Avatar
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    Ah! I've been away to long. (Currently working on 3D animation)

    To TDolce:
    I understand what you are saying about the need for drawing lines with a variable thickness. A must for creating a "pro" animations that are to be viewed on TV/DVD. I've been wondering when Bob was going to add this my self but never asked as I sure he has his hands full with features to keep the "Flash" users pleased. 2D animation seems to be getting bigger and Koolmoves is only lacking in a few areas on creating decent animations which we'll hopefully see in the future for KM.

    As for scanning in raster images to be vectorized would be another nice feature and I see Bob's point and your point on this. If Bob were to add all of these features (for animators) in KM then the price of KM would probably go up and regular flash users might not like this. But I can't really say what Bob's plans are on this.

    As for lip-sync, Necro has done said what I had thought about.

    What I would like to point out is BONES. The bones in KM are decent but still need work. Such as getting bending where it don't belong when animating.

    All-in-all, KM is still a good animation program. Any animation that can be done in MX can also be done in KM with the exception of variable lines which can be done in a SVG editor then imported in KM. Basically you're limited by your own imagination and creativity.

  19. #19
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    can also be done in KM with the exception of variable lines which can be done in a SVG editor then imported in KM.

    -> I would like to know how those lines are edited after they are drawn.

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    The lines can be edited by simply grouping the nodes or sections that you want to tweak. As the to achieve the variable thickness you basically are creating outlines for the line. As with vectors,..all lines are made up of points. Would it be tedius? I imagine it could,..but editing a variable thickness line is really not that difficult once you undertsand the basic principle of how they are created or simulated if you were.

    I have edited variable width lines in Moho and all you do is zoom in on the section,...group select the nodes that you want to edit and do so. OR even easier than that,...take the bloat tool or line thickness tool and drag it over the area of line you want to adjust and walaah it's done! Now that IS easy!

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