I'm Norwegian and I have nothing against Islam

[indivision]

However old it might be.. The Quran was not for only the stone age people it was for all the generations that were going to come after it..

And also.. the fact that what science is discovering today was written in the quran 1400 years ago makes it even more authentic for even more generations to come.

Quran and Mordern Science

does it predict pop-ups and spam?

i cant seem to navigate to anything from that link without getting spin-off pages.

[DaVulf]

Emm: I don't mean to be offensive, but I think you opinion may be slightly biased.

Call me crazy, but I don't think an objective person would be making those statements.

[Ask The Geezer]

The Quran was not for only the stone age people it was for all the generations that were going to come after it

You say that as if you think people or the world are never going to change.

[DaVulf]

You say that as if you think people or the world are never going to change.

Yea, but didn't you get the memo, we actually don't change and history repeats itself...

I think that neither side is going to agree though, you just can't argue with religious fanatics.

[emm_eye]

You say that as if you think people or the world are never going to change.

people and the world are bound to change and may be so.. but if it would.. there definetely is a sign of it in the Quran or Hadiths.


@davulf: call me fanatic.. call me biased... but the fact is, i just have strong faith in the teachings of Islam.


Ps: Don't know what happened to that link. anyways.. here are some basic facts. http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/actionnetwork/A6865743



edit: This might also be a good read if you are interested..
The Bible, The Qur'an and Science

[DaVulf]

I wasn't calling you fanatic, I was saying (objectively) that it is impossible to argue with fanatics as they will never agree to see sense as their beliefs are too deeply ingrained.

As for the bias, by reconfirming that you have strong faith in your religion you asert that you are indeed influenced by it in the discussion. Your arguments are not objective ones, and this hinders your side of the argument. I don't hold it against you, as I think it is great that you have found something to believe in. Unfortunately, I think the methods that your people have chosen to show the rest of the world that they dissaprove of cartoons are severly misguided.

Also, I'm pretty sure all of the articles you have posted have been written by supporters of Islam. Again, the bias.

[emm_eye]

As for the bias, by reconfirming that you have strong faith in your religion you asert that you are indeed influenced by it in the discussion. Your arguments are not objective ones, and this hinders your side of the argument.

True, this discussion here is heavily influenced by my faith.. because what is being disucssed here is my religion and the misconceptions most of you people have about it, which i was only trying to clear.

As for the methods of those few people over the disapproval of the cartoons. Most of the Muslim world condemns that.. and i think i've said it earlier..

Again.. its the western media. giving this small group all the hype.. which is why we have this long discussion going on here.

[XU1]

edit: This might also be a good read if you are interested..
The Bible, The Qur'an and Science

Very interesting indeed.......one day I would really like people like Mr:Bias to actualy speak to some one who knows and understands the Bible, as to his conclusions....

The Qur'anic Revelation has a history which is fundamentally different from the other two. It spanned a period of some twenty years and, as soon as it was transmitted to Muhammad by Archangel Gabriel, Believers learned it by heart.

I mean, excuse me for having a slight suspicion of Mr Bias here..all that is needed is a Bible student not a theologian ( many of them don't even believe in God) to show him from the Bible many of the things he calls contradictions....

Any way back on the Wild Monkey Scenes...

RIYADH, Saudi Arabia - Saudi Arabia’s top cleric called on the world’s Muslims to reject apologies for the “slanderous” caricatures of Islam’s Prophet Mohammed and demanded the authors and publishers of the cartoons be tried and punished, Saudi newspapers reported Saturday.

Thousands of Muslims, meanwhile, took to the streets in London and several other European cities to protest the drawings that were first published in a Danish newspaper in September and recently reprinted in other European publications. One depicted the prophet with a turban shaped like a bomb with a burning fuse.

Denmark also announced it has temporarily withdrawn its ambassadors from Syria, Iran and Indonesia because their safety was at risk in the wake of the controversy.

Speaking to hundreds of faithful at his Friday sermon, Sheik Abdul Rahman al-Seedes, the imam of the Grand Mosque in Mecca, Saudi Arabia, called on the international community to enact laws that condemn insults against the prophet and holy sites.

“Where is the world with all its agencies and organizations? Is there only freedom of expression when it involves insults to Muslims? With one voice...we will reject the apology and demand a trial,” Al Riyad, a Saudi daily newspaper, quoted al-Seedes as saying.

Al-Seedes said the cartoons “made a mockery” of the Islam and the Prophet and called them “slanderous.”

aahhh, I had a suspicion that an apology was not enough....I guess killing them for Allah to then roast them in an eternal torment of fire makes the heart grow fonder for some eh?.

Yahoo News

iTony

[Ask The Geezer]

aahhh, I had a suspicion that an apology was not enough

Imagine my surprise.

[XU1]

Imagine my surprise.

I was blown back as well, it's so out of character for the Mullahs to be so mean and vindictive...Still we have to remember that the leading Cleric in Saudi Arabia is only speaking for the minority......the rest want them beheaded...

iTony

[Ask The Geezer]

Reason #438 why the separation of church and state is a good idea.

[XU1]

Reason #438 why the separation of church and state is a good idea.

The problem is that you cannot separate islam from the body politic....since Islam has two aspects, religious and political.

Hence why the porblems with Muslims will only get worse as time progresses.

iTony

[Ask The Geezer]

The problem is that you cannot separate islam from the body politic

I don't want to.

They'll have to do it on their own.

[indivision]

I wasn't calling you fanatic, I was saying (objectively) that it is impossible to argue with fanatics as they will never agree to see sense as their beliefs are too deeply ingrained.

As for the bias, by reconfirming that you have strong faith in your religion you asert that you are indeed influenced by it in the discussion. Your arguments are not objective ones, and this hinders your side of the argument. I don't hold it against you, as I think it is great that you have found something to believe in. Unfortunately, I think the methods that your people have chosen to show the rest of the world that they dissaprove of cartoons are severly misguided.

Also, I'm pretty sure all of the articles you have posted have been written by supporters of Islam. Again, the bias.

Your argument here is a fallacy because you pre-suppose that you are aware of a proven "sense." Being objective simply means to not take your individual predispositions into account. It does not mean that you can't make a valid argument on a religious basis. Believing that there is a religious explanation for things is not an instance of bias.

Assuming that the "sense" you refer to is scientific evidence, there are countless examples of holes in our scientific understanding of reality that, once laid out, require as much faith as Islam, Christianity or any other religion to accept as absolute truth. Not to say that having this faith is a bad thing. It's necessary to have some level of faith just to comprehend reality. But, it's simply false that a religious argument is not valid, in comparison to a common "sense" one, on the basis of faith.

I'm in agreement with you about this issue, sentimentally. I just think that making it a sense vs religion argument is never going to go anywhere. It ought to be about what form a society interested in peace should take if its going to consist of people with diverse beliefs. There are times when a groups rights need to be protected. But, in this case, I think the group is the one that needs to adjust and re-consider their actions or they essentially become incompatible with the concept of diversity.

[XU1]

I don't want to.

They'll have to do it on their own.

You reckon they can do it without some one getting hurt?

iTony

[Orkar]

I am so tired of this crud going on in the world. Some people (and i'm being generous with the word people) believe the sun rises and sets according to what they were taught by religion.

A bunch of empty headed morons (regardless of the specific faith).

By the rules of religions... If I believe you are wrong or you upset me I can beat you to death by the most painful way i can think of. This is my right as a faithful believer.

I call BS on that concept. If you can't behave in the modern world ... well go back to your cave and rot in that hole in the ground.

Learn to think you IDIOTS!

[Ask The Geezer]

I am so tired of this crud going on in the world.

This is exactly how I feel about it. I have been watching the fighting that's been going on in Israel since roughly 1954. I was 8 then, and remember it from the radio and newspapers. It was in the juniour scholastic thing kids got in school then.

WTF? Ya know, this is so "Old World", where wars went on for 40 or 50 years and nothing ever changed. That kind of thing is to expensive. It's incredibly cruel and incredibly stupid for people to do that to themselves. I said people, cause it's not governments, it's not even religion, it's unreasoning hatred for each other at an individual level, passed on by stupid fathers to their stupid sons.

And they call americans childish and unsophisticated. Can you believe that?

[XU1]

. well go back to your cave and rot in that hole in the ground.

I think the intention here is to bring "us" to the caves.

iTony

[XU1]

Remember this wild monkey scene..all because a newspaper said that Muhammad would have married one of the pageants:

215 Dead in Riots Sparked by Miss World Sunday, November 24, 2002
*****, Nigeria — The regional governor warned rioters would be shot on sight Sunday as hundreds of people fled the northern Nigerian city of Kaduna after four days of religious violence over the Miss World pageant killed 200 people.

The violence among Muslims and Christians began after a newspaper article last week said Islam's founding prophet would have chosen a Miss World contestant for a wife. The pageant was then moved to London and the contestants packed their gear and flew to the British capital.

By late Saturday, the Nigerian Red Cross counted 215 bodies on the streets and in mortuaries throughout Kaduna, 100 miles north of the capital Abuja, said Emmanuel Ijewere, president of the organization. Previous estimates said 100 people killed.

An unknown number of others killed in the riots were believed to have been buried by family members uncounted, Ijewere told The Associated Press.

No new violence was reported Sunday in Kaduna, a Muslim-dominated city with a large Christian minority. Still, hundreds of people recovered what valuables they could from their destroyed homes and fled in cars, buses and on foot.

Those who stayed attended church services and replenished food stocks at markets, where a few meat and vegetable stalls reopened.

The Kaduna governor, Ahmed Makarfi, told state radio that security forces would "shoot on sight" anyone inciting new violence.

Yakubu Ibrahim, 27, returned to find his home in ruins Sunday after taking refuge at a local army barracks for three days.

"I lost everything except my shirt and my pants. I don't even have shoes," said Ibrahim, whose parents and four siblings were missing after the riots.

The fighting began after the *****-based ThisDay newspaper published an article on Nov. 16 saying Islam's founding prophet would have approved of the pageant.

Any bright spark in the pentagon would quickly realise the power of all this.

iTony

[DaVulf]

Indivision: I have to agree with your point, I shouldn't have argued that "sense" (in this case my bias) could overrule religious bias. Just because I do not believe in any of this crap does not mean that nobody should... Although I continue to believe that without these fanatics our world would be much better.

I agree with Geezer on his points, somebody really does need to put a stop to all this junk. Having a theocracy is terrible. Especially when we have totalitarian theocracies in certain countries where religious leaders have enough power to move the country. I guarantee that they probably don't have their people's best interests in mind, and that it is their own religious fervor that clouds any rational judgement.