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Thread: [DISC] Graphics vs Gameplay - Round II

  1. #41
    Senior Member Ray Beez's Avatar
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    I have a perfect example where graphics enhance the experience: That crab pong game! I don't remember the name, nor the author, but he posted it here in this forum. It's basically pong with an under-sea theme. Looked amazing and played well. It made an old tired concept interesting again.

  2. #42
    Senior Member tonypa's Avatar
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    "Puff Ball": http://www.flashkit.com/board/showthread.php?t=674266

    Its good example of graphics taking over gameplay. It looks very nice, first time you start the game you get this "wow!" feeling. Unfortunately, the gameplay has not been improved to same level. After playing it for 5 minutes, it starts to get a bit boring.

  3. #43
    Hype over content... Squize's Avatar
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    Yeah I didn't post about that game 'cause I couldn't see what all the fuss was about.

    It just seemed that everyone had been won over by some pretty renders and nice presentation.
    Perhaps it shows that great graphics can hide the lack of depth in a pick up and play game like that

    Squize.

  4. #44
    Patron Saint of Beatings WilloughbyJackson's Avatar
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    It just seemed that everyone had been won over by some pretty renders and nice presentation.
    Perhaps it shows that great graphics can hide the lack of depth in a pick up and play game like that
    Hmmm.... Discuss? Is this the evidence graphics > gameplay?

    -pXw
    (Still playing the devil's advocate...)

  5. #45
    Hey Timmy!!! walsher's Avatar
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    I can say that I was definately won over by that game till maybe my 10th time play'n it and it started to get boring. Sure I love good graphics, I'm more impressed when I see amazing things done in Flash. But, it's usually the gameplay that gets me hooked and I keep comin back for more.

    I've seen some good graphics but lack of any gameplay. I see it a good bit console games, Baiton Kaitos comes to name. The game had some amazing graphics but it was a crappy card battle game. I only once in a while play Flash games, so some examples my be console.

    Theres also times where you see good gameplay but misleading graphics. Look at Viewtiful Joe. It did a awesome side scrolling game mixed in with time abilities. But if you'd look at you see a comic/cartoon look, even with the Wind Waker.

  6. #46
    Patron Saint of Beatings WilloughbyJackson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by walsher
    Theres also times where you see good gameplay but misleading graphics. Look at Viewtiful Joe. It did a awesome side scrolling game mixed in with time abilities. But if you'd look at you see a comic/cartoon look, even with the Wind Waker.
    How is that a bad thing? I'm just curious because I've never looked at cartoony graphics as a bad thing, but I still hear it a lot. A lot of people slam Wind Waker for the cartoon look, but I think it works for the game overall. Viewtiful Joe has a lot of personality, and in Japan it is thought of as an all ages game.

  7. #47
    Hey Timmy!!! walsher's Avatar
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    Same here, I love cartoony graphics. But around here in the states it didn't do that good around sales wise. I wish it did, it was a great game. I think people tend to associate graphics with gameplay. If it looks cartoony or even childish they'll think that gameplay is geared toward a younger audience.

  8. #48
    Senior Member The Helmsman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WilloughbyJackson
    I disagree. Art is like anything else. Some people are gifted from above, while others learn.
    You can learn, but your pictures will be just a good pictures and nothing more. When i say you can't learn it - its a gift from above, i mean that you don't need to learn to draw something astonishing. I know people that draw amazing pictures w/o any knowledge in anatomy It's something which artist called "to have a good hand" That what gives DRIVE to pictures, and makes people say "WOW! Its amazing!"
    Quote Originally Posted by tonypa
    Knowing how to write good code does not make good games.
    But without knowing it you can't make game at all. Writing a game code is always a challenge, its always means to find a new ways and write something which doesn't exists.
    Quote Originally Posted by crashlanding
    On the physics point, sometimes the physics is the gameplay, and the more realistic the better. Take N. Minimalist graphics, but great gameplay thanks to brilliant level design and awsome physics.
    You say this because you didn't see the N game with amazing graphics. I can give you example: try to imagine original DOS "Prince of Persia" game w/o graphics, when prince looks like some box. In this case, do you wanna play it?
    Quote Originally Posted by nGFX
    why do nice threads always happen when i have *no* time to post?
    Lack of time mate, huh? I almost agree with everything in your post. I'm perfectionist too
    Quote Originally Posted by OpethRockr55
    On the commercial side, where both are taken to the extreme, I would have you look at Half-Life 2 and F.E.A.R.
    Yeah, i'm playing F.E.A.R. right now - great game. There are only one problem with it. Even my GeForce 6800 can't provide me with smooth gameplay on 1280x1024 with all settings set to Maximum :/ With Half-Life it was much easy
    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Beez
    I have a perfect example where graphics enhance the experience: That crab pong game!
    Yeah, i wanted to give this example too.

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Now concluding everything, i just want to point you guys on the fact that if you make game by yourself, graphics usually takes 70% of your time and code only 30%. And after all it still doesn't look like you imagine

    Happy coding

  9. #49
    Senior Member The Helmsman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squize
    Yeah I didn't post about that game 'cause I couldn't see what all the fuss was about.

    It just seemed that everyone had been won over by some pretty renders and nice presentation.
    Perhaps it shows that great graphics can hide the lack of depth in a pick up and play game like that

    Squize.
    Missed your post dude
    Welcome to the club of "Crab game lovers".

  10. #50
    Patron Saint of Beatings WilloughbyJackson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Helmsman
    You can learn, but your pictures will be just a good pictures and nothing more. When i say you can't learn it - its a gift from above, i mean that you don't need to learn to draw something astonishing. I know people that draw amazing pictures w/o any knowledge in anatomy It's something which artist called "to have a good hand" That what gives DRIVE to pictures, and makes people say "WOW! Its amazing!"
    I still don't see why someone who learned art is just producing "good pictures and nothing more." I've seen people on this board who had good sprites (seemingly natural talent) go to EXTREMELY EXCELLENT sprites with practice. I've watched people on Deviant Art go from people who are obviously tracing something into their own unique style. Art is learning. Even the masters were always experimenting with different styles.

    I am basically trying to say some people can understand how to improve on their own art style (no one starts off extremely great. Above average, yes, but not a master), while others can learn. Some people will be successful at learning, while others will fail. Some people have talent, some people learn talent. No matter how good you become, there will always be someone better. That's my point. But there is always remove for improvement.

    Coding is the same way. Some people can look through other people's code and debug what is wrong even if it is not written in their style. Some people have to keep looking up how to type a switch command.

    Now concluding everything, i just want to point you guys on the fact that if you make game by yourself, graphics usually takes 70% of your time and code only 30%. And after all it still doesn't look like you imagine
    It all depends. I know people who are more like 40% and 60%. Everyone is different.

    And if you're a perfectionist, nothing is ever as you imagined it.

    -pXw

  11. #51
    Flash hates me. crashlanding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Helmsman
    You say this because you didn't see the N game with amazing graphics. I can give you example: try to imagine original DOS "Prince of Persia" game w/o graphics, when prince looks like some box. In this case, do you wanna play it?

    When I'm talking about N's graphics, I'm not trying to say "they are terrible, but the game is still good". Well I am in a way, but the graphics arn't terrible, they are just right for the game. Just because they didn't take 6 months to draw and they contain 6 gazillion colours and pixel shader stuff, doesn't mean they're are terrible. N won loads of awards, are you saying that with "better" graphics it could have won much more? What I'm really trying to say is - graphics don't always have to be great. If that makes sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Helmsman
    Now concluding everything, i just want to point you guys on the fact that if you make game by yourself, graphics usually takes 70% of your time and code only 30%. And after all it still doesn't look like you imagine
    Not true. I usually take 90% code, 10% graphics. Take N for another example. Did those graphics take longer than those physics? I don't think so.
    Last edited by crashlanding; 03-13-2006 at 12:29 PM.
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    Last edited by some moderator : Today at 9:01 PM.

  12. #52
    Hype over content... Squize's Avatar
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    "Discuss? Is this the evidence graphics > gameplay?"

    Def. What really shocked me was the great response it got here, it's like everyone was won over by... pong.

    I'm all for using Flash to enhance old game styles, but there is a limit of style of substance. Nicely done game don't get me wrong, and from memory it was his first Flash game ( ? ) which is pretty impressive, but nothing "wow" about it imho.

    Goes to show if someone can win over actual Flash developers with some great presentation then how easy it is to win over Joe Public / clients with the same approach. In fact it's a round about way of me re-inforcing my point about Flash games ( For the most part ) not needing that huge depth that we always try and squeeze in

    Squize.

  13. #53
    Senior Member The Helmsman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WilloughbyJackson
    I still don't see why someone who learned art is just producing "good pictures and nothing more."
    Ok. I'll try to explain myself a little bit further...
    Here is a sample of the pictures that i call "just good pictures and nothing more":
    link - it was located as a featured item on Deviant Art. I suppose it means that most of people liked it
    And here is example of the pictures that i call "WOW":
    link - go to ILLUSTRATIONS>1-->12
    I've tried to find pictures of similar style.
    Anyway i agree with you when you say
    Quote Originally Posted by WilloughbyJackson
    I am basically trying to say some people can understand how to improve on their own art style (no one starts off extremely great. Above average, yes, but not a master), while others can learn.
    The only problem that sometime you came to end, where you see that your studies don't improve your pictures and you stuck there. With talented people it never happens.
    Quote Originally Posted by crashlanding
    When I'm talking about N's graphics, I'm not trying to say "they are terrible, but the game is still good". Well I am in a way, but the graphics arn't terrible, they are just right for the game. Just because they didn't take 6 months to draw and they contain 6 gazillion colours and pixel shader stuff, doesn't mean they're are terrible.
    N is extremely good game if we're talking about the PLOT and game engine, but the graphics are TERRIBLE. Don't you see it? It can be acceptable only for testing stage when you need to test an engine, but it's can't be acceptable in the final version. I love N game very much and i always enjoy to play it and see how it runs smoothly but i'm always thinking about how much better it will be if they'll make graphics same quality as a game engine.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squize
    What really shocked me was the great response it got here, it's like everyone was won over by... pong.
    Its only confirms my statement that graphics rules. Take for example all sites regarding web awards. The best known is almighty "The FWA" It's all about graphics and design. I don't remeber any site devoted to "the best coded site" or "the best HTML layout site" or "best CSS site".
    I'm not pretender to be judge in this question. May be i'm just charmed by graphics because everyday i write tons of code. Who knows?

  14. #54
    Patron Saint of Beatings WilloughbyJackson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Helmsman
    Ok. I'll try to explain myself a little bit further...
    Here is a sample of the pictures that i call "just good pictures and nothing more":
    link - it was located as a featured item on Deviant Art. I suppose it means that most of people liked it
    And here is example of the pictures that i call "WOW":
    link - go to ILLUSTRATIONS>1-->12
    I've tried to find pictures of similar style.
    Okay. This is officially getting into opinions.

    I know some people who would say example Number 2 is too sketchy for their tastes.

    However:

    http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/26116991/
    http://www.deviantart.com/view/28205819/
    http://www.deviantart.com/view/27704877/
    http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/29496580/

    All of these people have different styles of art. Some people like them, some people hate them. Personally, I like them all. And if I could pay them, I would love to have them do art for a game or two.

    But I can't, so I won't.

    The only problem that sometime you came to end, where you see that your studies don't improve your pictures and you stuck there. With talented people it never happens.
    As I said before some people will be successful at learning, while others will fail. Some people have talent, some people learn talent. No matter how good you become, there will always be someone better. Talented people may start on a higher level, BUT they can get stuck there and never be better by another talented person. Talented people can also lose their touch. I've seen a few artist who were really good, but then start drawing stuff all the same stuff. Akira Toriyama is an example of this. (Willoughby prepared for the backlash for that statement. )

    Quote Originally Posted by Squize-ez
    Def. What really shocked me was the great response it got here, it's like everyone was won over by... pong.
    Pong with power-ups, babe.

    Anyhow, graphics tend to not effect me, simple because I supported the Sega Saturn when I was little..

    No wait, that's not why...

    Anyhow, I think people are always very encouraging on someone's first game, and that definitely looked a lot better than 80% of the first games we get on this board.

    -pXw

  15. #55
    Senior Member The Helmsman's Avatar
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    All of this can be defined as "just a good anim. pictures" in my terms
    If started talking about anim. here are some sketches regarding this subj. which goes to be "good hand drawing" in terms of Graphics Artists or "WOW" in my terms:
    link 1
    link 2
    link 3
    And here are some color samples together w/ other sketches:
    link 4
    Quote Originally Posted by WilloughbyJackson
    Pong with power-ups, babe.

  16. #56
    Flash hates me. crashlanding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Helmsman
    N is extremely good game if we're talking about the PLOT and game engine, but the graphics are TERRIBLE. Don't you see it? It can be acceptable only for testing stage when you need to test an engine, but it's can't be acceptable in the final version. I love N game very much and i always enjoy to play it and see how it runs smoothly but i'm always thinking about how much better it will be if they'll make graphics same quality as a game engine.
    Ok. I just asked a few people some questions -

    "Are the N graphics terrible?"

    most people said, they're not great, but they do the job.

    "Would N be any better if the graphics were any better?"

    Everyone said "No".

    It's not a question of graphics vs gameplay. They each complement each other, and the style of the graphics needs to match the style of the game. N is a simple yet subtle game - things appear easy, but the game is actually quite hard. The graphics, are simple, but they work. As does the gameplay. Result: great game.
    "wen i found my gerbil dead my other gerbil was eating it i just cried and screamed"
    http://www.livescripts.net

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    Last edited by some moderator : Today at 9:01 PM.

  17. #57
    Senior Member The Helmsman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crashlanding
    Ok. I just asked a few people some questions -
    "Are the N graphics terrible?"
    most people said, they're not great, but they do the job.
    "Would N be any better if the graphics were any better?"
    Everyone said "No".
    In other words: be happy with what you have and don't ask for more :P

  18. #58
    Senior Member Ray Beez's Avatar
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    Where is this N game everyone is raving about?

  19. #59
    2D/3D Artist & Programmer Dominicaninja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Beez
    Where is this N game everyone is raving about?
    Same here hehe. I think I found it (used google), a ninja that runs around collecting coins and the environment seemed to be randomized? I still haven't gotten around to playing it since I forgot where I unzipped the exe to now... From the seconds I played of it, I'd say its the animation of the character that saves the graphics. Otherwise it wouldn't be much fun moving him around.
    Last edited by Dominicaninja; 03-13-2006 at 04:01 PM.
    If only we could be as productive as we are imaginative...

  20. #60
    Senior Member TeroLebe's Avatar
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    Metanet's N (the way of ninja)
    Watch out, it'll steal your heart
    N

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