[disc] Sponsorship Revisited

[Ray Beez]

I was just thinking, with all these "sponsor" sites popping up out of the woodwork (hell I think my site will have to join in, just to stay in competition!), are authors able to get various sponsor sites into a "bidding war"? You know, if Site A offers to pay $X, you should be able to go to Site B and try and get more...

Seems competition should be good for authors and raise the value of their games.

???
(has this already been discussed?)

[richardpendry]

I think that's a very good point Ray.

It does seem that - all of a sudden - there are shedloads of sites "sponsoring" games. Even certain reputable game developers I know (no names) are jumping on the bandwagon, offering amounts that I'm sure they'd be insulted if they were offered for one of their own games.

I think anyone who is offered a "sponsorship deal" from one of these sites would be sensible to not jump at it immediately, and to tout it around a few other sites to see what they're offered, and for what terms.

I can think of at least 5 well known sites now who could be approached, and developers could choose the best price and best terms.

And yes, if it helps a game developer get a better and fairer price for what is basically total global distribution rights to their game, then that has to be a good thing.

Rich

[Inglor]

I agree, don't think for a second this idea is not underwork at the moment.

I feel ArmorGames (previously) GoG started the 'fad', AG sponsored over 100 games by now including some major hits, 2 years ago sites stole credit but today more and more sites start giving the author credit, letting them keep the copyright, and paying them well.

here is a thread about what AG is :
http://newgrounds.com/bbs/topic.php?id=405700

more and more sponsors start to understand that treating developers well is the right thing to do

[tonypa]

I know this is not what you asked, but most of those sponsored games are pretty bad. It looks to me that developers are doing games for quick cash and dont really care about the content or look too much. Or perhaps the sponsoring sites are "ordering" games by "we want exactly like game X, but cheap".

[Ray Beez]

Tonypa: I'm seeing both ends of the spectrum these days. Good and bad. I'm sure the good ones were paid more than just $50, while the bad ones...

[Inglor]

Oh really Tonypa?

How about this, that or that one

Out of over 100 games ArmorGames sponsored I don't believe over 10 were created for cash. I do admit however that I did meet a lot of developers who were into money, I don't like that sort of people and I normally just block or ignore them, these people also produce products that end up being less fun. I don't know how other companies work but ArmorGames gives the artist creative space, we make suggestions now and then but we don't make authors take em, we help when asked (in flash, and in general) and we treat developers the best we can, we don't however like developers who're into cash, not that there's anything wrong with that but it's generally not our thing.

[WilloughbyJackson]

I can see how starting a bidding war might be a good thing. However, how much money are we talking about even WITH the bidding war? (EDIT: Nevermind I guess...)

However, one of my main issues I've had with sites that do sponsership is less about who gets credits or how much money, but how much control the sponsership group gets over the game itself.

I've seen wording similar to this on many of these sites:

You may not distribute the source files to your game or any versions of the game without the our logo and links.

That language is too vague for me.

I know of several people who have made a lot more money off the reskinning and/or selling their game engines to different companies. Would the sponsership company have a problem with that? Are clones of the game covered under this agreement? What about sequels? If the person gets a job making games for a company, could they use their engine for this, without worry about threats from the sponser?

I know there are a lot of people who aren't living on their own dealing with things like mortgages, kids, car payments, gas, food, etc... and to them, sponsership is grand because they can get X money for the game they did out of love in their free time. But is how many hours you have spent on your game really worth how much were paid for it, or could you get more mayhaps?

Another explanation is that sponsership will get your name advertised everywhere. But if someone clicks the game, likes it and wants some similar built will they contact the developer or the big shiney banner ad in the opening and branded all over the place? And even then, when the sponser contacts said developer about the project, how much will the sponser take from the developer to make the new version of the game?

Discuss...

[richardpendry]

Inglor's post about Armor Games on Newgrounds says:

"The only "don't" is selling your game to someone else after you have received our sponsorship."

I'm not quite sure what he means but it suggests that they are buying total rights to the game. Sure, you can give it away/submit it to other websites, but you can't sell it.

But then it also says:

"You get full ownership over your work"

So it seems to me there's a slight contradiction. Depending on the wording of your agreement, you could probably make some very minor changes and sell pretty much the same game to someone else.

[WilloughbyJackson]

See the problem with my writing long arse posts is people post stuff between time....

I know this is not what you asked, but most of those sponsored games are pretty bad. It looks to me that developers are doing games for quick cash and dont really care about the content or look too much. Or perhaps the sponsoring sites are "ordering" games by "we want exactly like game X, but cheap".

A lot of the sponsered games are bad because of inexperience. It has less to do with money, and more to do with the fact that a lot of the ones I know of people are still learning Flash as they create. In the old days, they'd post their games on Newgrounds, but to post their game on Newgrounds AND get some money! That's the bomb!

I'm sure, if you turn back time 5 years ago, I'd be one of those kids. (Speaking of which, I still need to make a game for Newgrounds specifically because it IS their fault I'm a Flash developer in the first place )

Out of over 100 games ArmorGames sponsored I don't believe over 10 were created for cash. I do admit however that I did meet a lot of developers who were into money, I don't like that sort of people and I normally just block or ignore them, these people also produce products that end up being less fun.

So people looking to make a living off of games is a no-no then? Anyone with a potential business sense is bad? Do you even look at a sample of their work before cutting them off?

[The_Mercenary]

Inglor's post about Armor Games on Newgrounds says:

"The only "don't" is selling your game to someone else after you have received our sponsorship."

I'm not quite sure what he means but it suggests that they are buying total rights to the game. Sure, you can give it away/submit it to other websites, but you can't sell it.

But then it also says:

"You get full ownership over your work"

So it seems to me there's a slight contradiction. Depending on the wording of your agreement, you could probably make some very minor changes and sell pretty much the same game to someone else.

you cant get it sponsored by more than one site. Thats what its saying. They only want one version of the game to be out on the net.

[Inglor]

Inglor's post about Armor Games on Newgrounds says:

"The only "don't" is selling your game to someone else after you have received our sponsorship."

I'm not quite sure what he means but it suggests that they are buying total rights to the game. Sure, you can give it away/submit it to other websites, but you can't sell it.

We are lisencing exclusive rights for the game, authors can submit it to other websites and may sell it to other websites too, they are not allowed however to remove the ArmorGames branding from the flash file. We also do inexclusives in some cases.

But then it also says:

"You get full ownership over your work"

So it seems to me there's a slight contradiction. Depending on the wording of your agreement, you could probably make some very minor changes and sell pretty much the same game to someone else.

We only deal with honest people, if we don't like the way a flash author works we won't deal with them again, normally it's a bigger loss for them. There is no commitment over sequels and such but people tend to come back for more, seems to me we're doing something right

[Inglor]

See the problem with my writing long arse posts is people post stuff between time....

A lot of the sponsered games are bad because of inexperience. It has less to do with money, and more to do with the fact that a lot of the ones I know of people are still learning Flash as they create. In the old days, they'd post their games on Newgrounds, but to post their game on Newgrounds AND get some money! That's the bomb!

Yeah, I agree in that

I'm sure, if you turn back time 5 years ago, I'd be one of those kids. (Speaking of which, I still need to make a game for Newgrounds specifically because it IS their fault I'm a Flash developer in the first place )

Newgrounds is a great site, I'm a big NG fan

So people looking to make a living off of games is a no-no then? Anyone with a potential business sense is bad? Do you even look at a sample of their work before cutting them off?

Of course not, we even hire one developer ourselves on a monthly pay, I just dislike people who got into flash, and mainly produce flash only to get paid.

[WilloughbyJackson]

you cant get it sponsored by more than one site. Thats what its saying. They only want one version of the game to be out on the net.

To that effect, and Richard can correct me on this, there are people who will LICENSE your game even if it is on other website. If there is one thing I've learned from being on this board and Newgrounds, is that there are a lot of people who DO NOT surf around for games. They go to one or maybe two sources and that's it. So if they go to...say...MiniClip, they might associate a game, like HeliAttack with MiniClip, though, the game can be legally found elsewhere. Another example is stolen games submitted to Newgrounds. If it's good, I've seen people get up 50 feedback comments (stuff like, you're really good or what not) before anyone starts posting "STOLEN!". If people were surfing they'd have seen this game elsewhere. (Since a lot of "bad" sponsership sites had already stolen it month ago...)

Anyhow, your game can be in as many places as you like as long as the big arse logo is everywhere. It gets more people to the sponser's site = more traffic = more ad revenue...

-pXw

[WilloughbyJackson]

Of course not, we even hire one developer ourselves on a monthly pay, I just dislike people who got into flash, and mainly produce flash only to get paid.

You mean if someone is making a living at it (someone who produces stuff to be sold for money)? Everyone's gotta eat, right?

I got into Flash for fun, but now I have to pay the bills. My current game, Number Explosion has been created in my limited free time. I had fun creating it BUT if I am talking to someone about licensing (or for sake of argument sponsership) of the game, I'll be asking to see what they might offer me. Does that disqualify me?

[Inglor]

We as well as probably most other sponsor sites allow to place the phrase "sponsored by" on top of every logo, intro or link related to the sponsorship. AG (as well as a lot of other sites ) doesn't gain squat by not giving authors the credits they deserve, some other sites do steal credit and claim they've made the content, it's important people know that. The logo also isn't 'big arse', as long as it's visible in the main menu, and there is an intro, you can do whatever you like, and even that's discussable.

This is not a strict business, my part in ArmorGames is to make sure both ArmorGames and the sponsored author are completely satisfied with the sponsorship =)

[richardpendry]

We only deal with honest people, if we don't like the way a flash author works we won't deal with them again, normally it's a bigger loss for them.

*cough*

Er... I'm certainly not for a second recommending that any developer acts dishonestly.

I'm simply saying that there's a contradiction in your post on NG, and that your terms are unclear. I hope that your written agreements with developers are clearer, that's all.

However, I'm curious about your suggestion that you do this to support flash games developers and people who are "into games", and that you don't like developers who are "into the money". It seems a little at odds with such an aggressive branding strategy for Armor Games, where you insist on exclusivity.

Exclusive deals only help the sponsor, not the developer, don't they?

[WilloughbyJackson]

The logo also isn't 'big arse', as long as it's visible in the main menu, and there is an intro, you can do whatever you like, and even that's discussable.

Okay... It just seems most AG on Newgrounds have grandious AG logos in the beginning and it also general appeared EVERYWHERE (including as part of the game play).

To be honest, the logos often look better than the game...

Anyhow.. Just curious, I'm still waiting for a reply to my last post (the does that disqualify me? question).

Also, if you could address richardpendry's question as well?

Thanks...

[The_Mercenary]

*cough*

Er... I'm certainly not for a second recommending that any developer acts dishonestly.

I'm simply saying that there's a contradiction in your post on NG, and that your terms are unclear. I hope that your written agreements with developers are clearer, that's all.

However, I'm curious about your suggestion that you do this to support flash games developers and people who are "into games", and that you don't like developers who are "into the money". It seems a little at odds with such an aggressive branding strategy for Armor Games, where you insist on exclusivity.

Exclusive deals only help the sponsor, not the developer, don't they?

1) I think he answered the question earlier, you can sell the game to other sites, but you cant have a different version of the game, as in, all versions of the game must have armor games logo on it.

2) This is somewhat confusing, but I think he means that he doesnt like people who dont care about what they are making and all they care about is money. Still somewhat confusing though, I mean the game has to be made by someone who knows how to make a game, and if they know how, than they must have took the time to learn, which means they care...I dunno..

3)yea, exclusivity will mostly help the sponsor, but it does some good to the author too, you get paid more if its exclusive.

[Ray Beez]

INGLOR: If you don't pay for sponsorship, then I'm completely baffled by what your business model is. What benefit does the AUTHOR gain from "sponsorship"? We already know that ArmorGames benefits by:

1. Increased brand exposure
2. Increased traffic
3. Ad revenue from that traffic

What does the author get other than restrictions?? You confuse me.

[The_Mercenary]

INGLOR: If you don't pay for sponsorship, then I'm completely baffled by what your business model is. What benefit does the AUTHOR gain from "sponsorship"? We already know that ArmorGames benefits by:

1. Increased brand exposure
2. Increased traffic
3. Ad revenue from that traffic

What does the author get other than restrictions?? You confuse me.

what are you talking about? AG pays alot for their games. They even pay you more if your game does good on newgrounds.