I have had it up to here.....

[luvenny]

And your baseing your belief on?

faith, that's why it's called a 'belief'.

Pardon me if I wrote that as if I discredit your paragraph in any way at all, I'm not. I'm just pointing out that those are devised based on your assumptions. and everyone has one.

[luvenny]

To be taken as a joke.

The best argument I've heard from people when asked whether they believe in God or not is this (in Christianity context):
Preacher: Do you people believe in God? what do you got to lose? if you follow His words and He IS exist, then you've won a jackpot. if he's not, what do you got to lose?!
Unbeliever: Hrmmmm, a very good point. But what if by following your God, I actually followed a wrong God! and the 'real' God got mad and punish me?!

[Ask The Geezer]

And your faith is based on?

[luvenny]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith

This kind of faith doesn't require base...

[Ask The Geezer]

Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence

So, your belief is based on faith, and faith is based on belief? Is that about right?

And I'm supposed to fall for this pyramid scheme, why?

The truth is, nobody who claims they are a believer knows why they believe. I'm more comfortable being a cynic, to tell the truth. At least I know why I don't believe.

[bvgroote]

yes but maybe, just maybe, the ones who don't need a reason to believe surpass you. Maybe the clue to finding the answer, is not needing one?

[luvenny]

Haha, just to make sure everyone knows, i'm not trying to convert or preach anything by the above posts.

You're already taken the stand that all these are a 'thing' that need to be sold, that's why everything appeared to be a scam, pyramid scheme, etc.

But the truth is, like i already said, it doesn't need to be proven, seen, touched etc, for something to be 'exist'.

So again, those people are just doing their 'job' to tell people that that something is 'exist', however given us, human, we require that prove to belief, and hence the two will never meet. You won't fell to their pyramid scheme. because the two starts from a very different points.

to be true to the thread starter, yeah those people are annoying.

[bvgroote]

"to be true to the thread starter, yeah those people are annoying."

Thankyou, I can now rest in Tana peace.

[Ask The Geezer]

But the truth is, like i already said, it doesn't need to be proven, seen, touched etc, for something to be 'exist'.

That's just my point. There is no truth where there is no proof. And in thousands of years of religion, there's never once been any proof of an afterlife, a god, or a soul.

Seriously, isn't it time to admit that maybe you've all been wrong? Cut the apron strings? GROW UP? I mean, the catholics even call their priests Father for boojums sake.

[luvenny]

Ermm, how is "there is no truth where there is no proof" hold?

A very simple example, a person who killed his friend, even though he is not proven in the court, is he rendered OK for doing so? the absolute truth is killing someone is wrong. you don't need to be proven to say that.

Another example is some light years ago, when we human still on our primitive mode, we don't even know what's we are breathing (or even aware that we are breathing), but does that render that the fact we were breathing oxygen is not true? by your logic you are saying at that point of time we are breathing nothing, only after those 'scientist' proven that we breath oxygen only then we do so?

So yea my point I guess still the same. for something to 'exist' doesn't need us to prove it =)

Edit: I wrote that in general terms, not just relating to Christianity... just so everyone knows.

Btw, the 'father' part, is just a notion. like we calling people with Dr, Mr, etc. it just happens that 'father' has other meaning, the one that we know. my 2 cents.
In my mother tounge language, we have the same word for calling our dad, some stranger (mr), 'father' in your context, and God himself. all same word.

[Ask The Geezer]

So yea my point I guess still the same. for something to 'exist' doesn't need us to prove it =)

Well of course not, and that's my arguement. You believers don't, you'll believe anything.

By your logic.

[luvenny]

Wait a second, belief got nothing to do with this :P

belief got nothing to do with 'existance'.

so no I don't believe in everything, i don't believe that there is alien out there, BUT if it's exist we don't need anyone to 'prove' it to us, they just there without us knowing. fair?

[Ask The Geezer]

they just there without us knowing.

You can not claim they are there without being able to prove it. Believers labor under the mistaken 'belief' that everyone is as willing to believe as they are.

And well, that's just not true at all. That's why the evangelists will never save everybody. And the more science spreads in the world, the fewer they are going to convince. People need proof. Even you. Your fooling yourself if you think you only need proof for some things and not others. Don't tell me you wouldn't feel a lot better about your "faith" and "belief" if your god were to step up and show himself to everyone.

[RUSHVision]

I have to say that I don't believe proof is required in order for something to exist. Take the quite widespread belief at one time that the world was flat as an example. Was it actually flat until someone decided to sail around to world and find out for sure? I am going put forth that it was round all along...existing as a sphere without proof...and all the proof did was pierce the veil of our ignorance. God or something similar to the concept is out there, or there is nothing out there, or something else altogether, but either way it is or isn't whether we can prove it or not. Proof is only a stepping stone of knowledge and awareness, not a requirement for existence.

[luvenny]

You can not claim they are there without being able to prove it. Believers labor under the mistaken 'belief' that everyone is as willing to believe as they are.

no no, you're missing the point. I'm just mere stating that to be 'exist' we don't need 'proof'. I'm not claiming they are there.

however you are right, to claim something we needproof.

That's what those 'street evangelist' trying to do! and that's impossible to achieve since they won't have that proof!

That's why I'm not trying to ask everyone to belief what I belief. I'm just stating that to be 'exist' we don't need 'proof'.

I don't claim the alien is there, because i don't have any proof. however if the alien are there, they are there. with or without us proving. they 'exist'.
I can't even claim that alien is not there. because i can't proof it either. however the fact remains, if the alien are not there, then they are not exist. with or without us proving...

are we reiterating points? hee hee

[bvgroote]

<exits pointless argument>

[pea3698]

Oh man, dude. That's why I said what I said, because your point has nothing to do with the thread topic. Since your first post you have been defending religion itself rather than the minority that ruin it. THAT is the topic of discussion.

Where in my first post did I defend religion. As I said I did get away from the main topic as the topic progressed.

If you are referring to somewhere in the US, then this falls under freedom of speech and religion. And you coming to a public forum and ranting about not wanting to hear others talk about their beliefs because they don't match yours is just as bad. You also have the freedom to say no thank you or to just walk away. If these people bother you so much, exercise this right to walk away and don't come preaching to everyone else about your beliefs.

*edit Upon reading my post throughout the entire thread I have actually not defended thier religion at all, not once. I did put forth what I believe but I did not defend what they believe. I probably don't completely believe in what these people believe in therefore making it hard to defend their beliefs in the first place.

[pea3698]

ATG Can you prove without a doubt that there isn't a "God"? If so I would love to see it.

[Frets]

I believe there is no god hence nothing to prove.

[Ask The Geezer]

ATG Can you prove without a doubt that there isn't a "God"? If so I would love to see it.

The burden of proof isn't on me. It's on those who claim there is a god. Your exact statement there is just one of the things that is so infuriating about the thumpers. They can't prove their own beliefs, so when brought up short by a request for some proof, they have no option but to pass the hot potato. What makes it worse is they can't make the jump to the next step, ever. And this is questioning their own beliefs.

The mongrels who started your religion a couple thousand years ago were the worlds best psychologists. They knew this question was going to come up by anyone who they hadn't brainwashed with their crap, so on the off chance they didn't get everyone who didn't fall for the lies at the stake burnings, they ingrained in their flock that it's even a sin to have doubts. So you no longer even ask the question of yourselves. Your only outlet is to say, "prove it doesn't". And thats what's so pathetic about religions. You think your damned if you dou, yet your damned if you don't.

Break the viscious circle. Just demand proof. Every other endeavor in life requires it.