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Thread: First Microsoft... then Sony.

  1. #1
    supervillain gerbick's Avatar
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    First Microsoft... then Sony.

    Backwards compatibility... can't they get it right!?

    It seems that the help lines over at Sony are on fire with calls from new PS3 owners complaining that the PS3 isn’t so compatible with many PS1 and PS2 titles. Apparently, some of the older titles just flat don’t work and some of them work, but you get no sound which we talked about before.

    According to the Inq, over 200 older Playstation titles are affected. Supposedly, Sony claims they can fix the issue at some point via online updates so if you have an affected game, you will have to wait for a patch to repair the problem.
    Before the Sony fanboys chime in... the "patch to repair the problem" is what Microsoft did, yet got straight clowned for by the Sony people.

    Yet... now it's happening to Sony... almost a perfect example of the karmic boomerang.

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  2. #2
    Information Architect Subway's Avatar
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    I see, you're still on the same generalization trip.

    Let's compare the two issues:

    PS3:

    - 200 out of over 15'000 games don't work at launch, that's ~1% of all games
    - To fix it they have to fix the driver for the PS2 chips that are inside the PS3 (GS+ES+RAM ... yep, even the RAM chips of the PS2 are inside the PS3)

    Xbox 360:

    - At launch less than 50 games out of over 1000 worked, over 1000 games didn't work, that's over 90%! And now after a full year it's still over 50% that don't work.
    - To fix it they have to patch every single game that isn't already patched, every single game, not just one driver!

    And anyway, the situation with the PS2 was no different, imperfect driver at launch, fixed later.

    Fredi
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  3. #3
    supervillain gerbick's Avatar
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    whoa there kemosabe. calm down.

    Those are things you get perfect before launch. QA failed Sony. That's not a generalization. Microsoft's QA... imploded or something.

    I just wonder if Nintendo will have the same problem.

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  4. #4
    Information Architect Subway's Avatar
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    Oh I'm sure they knew about the problem (no QA issue), they just couldn't make it perfect (or perfect enough) in time. Hey, even the newer revisions of the PS2 that use the same chips as found in the PS3 had (or still have) problems with a few of the old PS2 games.

    Btw, the Wii is like the 360, no real backward compatibility and a very limited number of compatible games ... actually even worse, you even have to download and pay to play the old SNES, NES ... games.

    Fredi
    Last edited by Subway; 11-15-2006 at 07:31 AM.
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  5. #5
    Hood Rich FlashLackey's Avatar
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    nice. this is the kind of old-school flashkit battle i like to see!
    "We don't estimate speeches." - CBO Director Doug Elmendorf

  6. #6
    supervillain gerbick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subway
    Btw, the Wii is like the 360, no real backward compatibility and a very limited number of compatible games ...
    no real backward compatibility doesn't mean none though... take a read... still doesn't seem "just right" though. you have to power down the machine to get the remotes to work? 360 didn't even do that.

    friend in Japan is reporting the backward compatibility on the PS3 plays only 2 games out of her small-ish collection. and she can't find the PS2 adapter for the memory cards yet.

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  7. #7
    Information Architect Subway's Avatar
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    I think the main problem is that Sony tryd to make the PS3 software backward compatible without the PS2 chips but failed (for now) and had to go the hardware BC route last moment. They actually still plan to remove those chips in one of the PS3 revisions as it naturaly is an expensive solution for them.

    Fredi
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  8. #8
    supervillain gerbick's Avatar
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    I'll ask you then...

    Why can't CELL emulate EE? Besides the obvious - different architecture, code execution "style", and ISA... the emulation with the cores doing true distributive work on the emulation of EE within CELL should be quite easy once the software is written for it, no?

    Just seems like a lot of what Sony did was pretty much last second in too many areas. Not saying it won't get done right... just seems rushed near the end.

    Anyway, the whole backwards compatibility issue goes all the way back to the Atari 5200... which wasn't fully compatible with the more popular 2600. They got it right... with the 7800. Well that and an adapter later released for the 5200.

    Like I said earlier... when will they get it right? Historically, not too often. PS1 to PS2 is about the only real majority where it just "worked".

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  9. #9
    Information Architect Subway's Avatar
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    Well, when did you ever see a complex piece of software done right, with zero bugs? It's more or less impossible ... well, at least if you don't have an infinite amount of time.

    Fredi
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  10. #10
    New Wave Visionray's Avatar
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    I swear the PS3 is getting absolutely no hype around here. Instead I saw a line outside Gamestop last week to buy that 360 game Gears of War. Also saw several people buying the console just for that game. Not really my kind of game but it looks insane.

  11. #11
    An Inconvenient Serving Size hurricaneone's Avatar
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    I saw the backwards compatibility issue raised on bbc.co.uk and considered it a non-issue. Although I did note that one of the games not working is Gran Turismo - seriously, GT? Isn't that like, umm, important?

    BTW, the BBC's where I'm getting all my PS3 news from - there's precious little elsewhere. Though, with us not being favoured y Sony and only reciving the platform in March '07, there's unlikely to be any institutionalized hype before Xmas.
    Stand by for emergency synapse rerouting

  12. #12
    Retired SCORM Guru PAlexC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subway
    Btw, the Wii is like the 360, no real backward compatibility and a very limited number of compatible games ... actually even worse, you even have to download and pay to play the old SNES, NES ... games.
    You'd need a cartridge slot for each one of those systems, and all of those carts are out of production, a lot are in landfills or dusty. Legacy support for those just isn't feasible, and given the amount of space they take up, online distribution is a great model. The Wii is GC compatible though. Considering the Wii is just a faster, smaller fabbed CG, I can't imagine any compatibility issues popping up.

    Quote Originally Posted by gerbick
    Why can't CELL emulate EE? Besides the obvious - different architecture, code execution "style", and ISA... the emulation with the cores doing true distributive work on the emulation of EE within CELL should be quite easy once the software is written for it, no?
    I'm willing to bet with the single EE+GPU chip already in mass production (and probably for years to come as well) for the slim PS2, it was actually cheaper just to include it in the PS3. It's a proven product already in use, and an emulator is going to have way more compatibility issues, see: Xbox 360. Sony probably saw what happened there and decided to play it safe. You assume writing for Cell is easy, it may not be when it comes to emulation.

    I'll probably get sh*t on for saying this here, but I'm considering a PS3 down the road once the price drops a bit and some decent titles come out.
    Last edited by PAlexC; 11-15-2006 at 10:16 AM.
    "What really bugs me is that my mom had the audacity to call Flash Kit a bunch of 'inept jack-asses'." - sk8Krog
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  13. #13
    Information Architect Subway's Avatar
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    Hardware is always more expensive if you have to ship millions of it. Software only costs you money once till it works.

    Quote Originally Posted by PAlexC
    The Wii is GC compatible though.
    True ... no wonder as the Wii is basicaly a Gamecube with a few MHz more here and there.

    Fredi
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  14. #14
    Retired SCORM Guru PAlexC's Avatar
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    Ah...the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They're back! There's no choice left. And I'm ready for a Gerbick-Subway console flamewar.

    /marv
    "What really bugs me is that my mom had the audacity to call Flash Kit a bunch of 'inept jack-asses'." - sk8Krog
    ...and now I have tape all over my face.

  15. #15
    junior master chef j_hunter182's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subway
    Btw, the Wii is like the 360, no real backward compatibility and a very limited number of compatible games
    Surely that should say PS3 instead of Wii?

    The Wii is compatible with GC games AND hardware and as you said, also plays games from NES up, including Mega Drive (Genesis) games. OK, most of the old games will be released as and when, but at least they'll work. How is that not real backward compatibility? Surely games not working suggests a console doesn't have real backward compatibility...

  16. #16
    Retired SCORM Guru PAlexC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerbick
    Why can't CELL emulate EE? Besides the obvious - different architecture, code execution "style", and ISA... the emulation with the cores doing true distributive work on the emulation of EE within CELL should be quite easy once the software is written for it, no?
    Wait wait...I see where you're going.

    You want Subby to admit that Cell isn't nearly as all-powerful and dominant a CPU as Sony claims, that it simply doesn't have the juice (in the final production version for the PS3) to emulate Emotion.
    "What really bugs me is that my mom had the audacity to call Flash Kit a bunch of 'inept jack-asses'." - sk8Krog
    ...and now I have tape all over my face.

  17. #17
    Information Architect Subway's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j_hunter182
    Surely games not working suggests a console doesn't have real backward compatibility...
    Let's wait and see how the Wii emulates all those pre-Gamecube games. After seeing the very short downloadable backcatalog I'm really wondering why they hold back so many games ... my guess for the moment is that they face emulation problems like everyoine else.

    Fredi
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  18. #18
    Retired SCORM Guru PAlexC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subway
    Let's wait and see how the Wii emulates all those pre-Gamecube games. After seeing the very short downloadable backcatalog I'm really wondering why they hold back so many games ... my guess for the moment is that they face emulation problems like everyoine else.
    NES/SNES/Sega/Genesis/Turbografx emulation is easy, been around for years.

    It's probably less about compatibility than it is:
    1.) Signing rights holders to agreements
    2.) Getting source code for those games, and having the resources to convert/test all of them
    3.) Not wanting to blow their load all at once (the company's stock does better if you buy 2 games every 3 months than 6 games in one month, followed by 2 months of nothing)
    "What really bugs me is that my mom had the audacity to call Flash Kit a bunch of 'inept jack-asses'." - sk8Krog
    ...and now I have tape all over my face.

  19. #19
    Senior Member ihoss.com's Avatar
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    Ah Subby, I knew you would return once the PS3 was released
    Btw, the Wii is like the 360, no real backward compatibility and a very limited number of compatible games ... actually even worse, you even have to download and pay to play the old SNES, NES ... games.
    Can you really use that as an argument? You would laugh at it if it used cartridges, which is why you have to download them. pluss, if backwards compatible is such a major point, then do you really need good graphics and new games?

  20. #20
    The Ancient
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    I particularly like how the PS3 is an entirely new console, even though has "PS2 chips inside the PS3," but the Wii is just a GC with a few Mhz more here and there.
    jahasloth

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