Ok... I'm really in the dark. Holocaust doubters?

[gerbick]

It's easy to alter history. I'm not quite sold on it being easy to fake it.

Slight difference in semantics; but a difference nonetheless.

And I don't see newspaper propaganda as the equivalent to a death either. But I understand your point.

[MechaPiano]

It wouldn't be easy. It would be impossible.

Oh yes,
concentration camps. There's just no way you can fake those. No sir! No way. Not even the one we have a few kilometers from here, the one that was called a prison during the WWII (the Abu Grape type of prison) and then suddenly transformed into an "evil concentration camp" during USSR and later. And funny how the word "concentration camp" is only associated with Jews, like the people of other nationalities never been there. And surely what they say is a 100% truth.

I'm done here. If you don't get my point by now then there's really no need for me to bother.

[MagnusVS]

What you call it is not the point. The point is what has taken place there. You can call Auschwitz a prison if that fits better for you. But it doesn't change the fact that it wasn't what we call an ordinary prison. A prison doesn't have gas chambers. In a prison, you doesn't systematically kill the prisoners. If you think that the massacre of 6 million jews is just a lie, I feel sorry for you.

And funny how the word "concentration camp" is only associated with Jews, like the people of other nationalities never been there. And surely what they say is a 100% truth.

Ehm... it's a widely known fact that gypsies, prisoners of war etc. were also sent to concentration and death camps. Are you angry because people believe that, what thousands of surviving jews says, is true?

[Ultima Designs]

Oh yes,
concentration camps. There's just no way you can fake those. No sir! No way. Not even the one we have a few kilometers from here, the one that was called a prison during the WWII (the Abu Grape type of prison) and then suddenly transformed into an "evil concentration camp" during USSR and later. And funny how the word "concentration camp" is only associated with Jews, like the people of other nationalities never been there. And surely what they say is a 100% truth.

I'm done here. If you don't get my point by now then there's really no need for me to bother.

I get your point. Being Jewish and knowing people/family members who lost loved ones in the Holocaust, your point(s) are offensive if not outright disgusting.

[cancerinform]

Oh yes,
concentration camps. There's just no way you can fake those. No sir! No way. Not even the one we have a few kilometers from here, the one that was called a prison during the WWII (the Abu Grape type of prison) and then suddenly transformed into an "evil concentration camp" during USSR and later. And funny how the word "concentration camp" is only associated with Jews, like the people of other nationalities never been there. And surely what they say is a 100% truth.

I'm done here. If you don't get my point by now then there's really no need for me to bother.

Concentration camps were built immediately when A. Hitler came to power in 1933 initially for political prisoners and also for Jews. Later after the war started there were many war prisoners in camps. In 1941/42 extinction camps were built, which are different from the concentration camps. They were hidden from the outside and had gas chambers. Officially the gas chambers were claimed to kill lice and other insects and diseases in clothes from prisoners. However, there were also "shower" rooms and in those Jews, mentally retarded, handicapped, Serbs and others were killed. The Nazis needed a "quick solution" to the mass killing, which they found in the gas chambers. The chambers were close to a crematorium to burn the dead bodies.

[admedia]

I listened to some Holocaust survivors on the radio commenting on this rediculous 'conference'. It was sad thinking about the fact that they survived through it and now have to witness this disgrace.

Anyone lending even a hint credibility or creedence whatsoever to these unbelievable morons should be ashamed of themselves. Make no mistake about it. This is a conference orchestrated simply to breed hate and nothing else.

[Visionray]

Imagine if George Bush decided to set up a conference to determine if Muhammed really ever existed. The earth would be set ablaze, guaranteed.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the point of a conference like this to have some kind of objective discussion? Seems the only people attending this conference are extremists who've already made up their mind. Figures. What normal person with a brain would want to waste their time trying to convince these guys?

But as far as the death toll, hey they may be right. Was it 6 million? Maybe it was 5 million, or 4 million. Who knows. People do tend to exaggerate death tolls for effect. Look at 9-11, news channels were immediately declaring 50k+ dead on the day of the attacks. If 9-11 happend a few hundred years ago, without our current intelligence gathering and resources, who knows, that number might have stuck. In war torn countries especially it is hard to get accurate numbers on this type of thing. Imagine how hard it is to get a head count on how many Jews were killed when entire families along with all their belongings were wiped out. For all we know it could have been more than 6 million.

Either way Ahmadinejad is still a chump just trying to stir the pot. I hope that he is soon "wiped off the map".

[gerbick]

VR, you know I gotta point out the difference.

Doubting a religious prophet versus doubting a recent event quite the difference.

I guess saying if Egypt were to doubt how many slaves were killed in the building of the pyramids, how many africans died in the "Middle Passage", or if 143 people died during the ATF raid of David Koresh's "camp", that would be similar imho.

[admedia]

But as far as the death toll, hey they may be right. Was it 6 million?

I believe the Nazis actually kept meticulous records of their 'Final solution'. Everything I have read seems to estimate a number of 5-6 million jews and an equal number of non-jews.

This article talks about 4 million people including non-jews gassed at Auschwitz alone.

Krema I ..... 300 bodies per day; 720 days.
Krema II ..... 3,000 bodies per day; 570 days.
Krema III ..... 3,000 bodies per day; 540 days.
Krema IV ..... 1,500 bodies per day; 510 days.
Krema V ..... 1,500 bodies per day; 540 days.

By multiplying the number of the daily incineration capacity of bodies per day by the number of days, for each Krema, a total of 5.121 million deaths was obtained. Then, assuming the Kremas were used at 4/5 their capacity, the death toll of 4.097 million was obtained.

I hope that he is soon "wiped off the map".

Then we can schedule a conference in 60 years and deny it ever happened.

[FlashLackey]

Then we can schedule a conference in 60 years and deny it ever happened.

hah!

[aka_tech]

This an interesting discussion gerbick. So far people are behaving sanely, normally these types of discussion spark a flashy row (as witnessed over the years).

Personally I think the Holocaust occured to some degree, but the numbers are over exagerated and has been used as a justification platform for the creation of Israel.

Keep flashing.

[FlashLackey]

hmmm. i dont get it. so, if a mere 2 million were actually killed, the creation of Israel wouldn't have been justified?

[gerbick]

3 million plus deaths created Liberia. So... it's still feasible.

[aka_tech]

The creation of Israel resulted in robbing lands off the Palestian people who lived there and that robbing is still in progress.

[gerbick]

I get your point aka, but what I'd rather center around isn't the perpetuated struggle with Palestine and Israel's 1948 creation, but the whole Holocaust and the doubts that surround it.

We know the end results; but it seems to be that the doubters are going after catalyst to what you're talking about, not so much the outcome(s).

I'll say it again... I think that the numbers are too inclusive of other indigenous people that were also executed. The number for whom the event was named for though, I think still it was less. But not to the point of where I'd agree with David Duke.

[FlashLackey]

The creation of Israel resulted in robbing lands off the Palestian people who lived there and that robbing is still in progress.

there may have been transgressions against various individuals. i wasnt there. but, technically speaking, there was never a country called Palestine to rob land from.

[TheOriginalFlashDavo]

Well, there was never a "country" called Australia, or the USA I guess for that matter, before the white European came.

[FlashLackey]

so there was a peaceful Palestinian tribe in now-Israel, tilling the land and hunting buffalo until the evil and brazen Jews, emboldened by their experiences in Europe came down and robbed their land?

[TheOriginalFlashDavo]

What, Indian tribes in the north American continent didn't fight each other?

[FlashLackey]

nope. they had everything worked out perfectly until the white Europeans came.