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Thread: The US Economy in the crapper starting Monday?

  1. #221
    Senior Member MagnusVS's Avatar
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    Yeah I think that's correct

  2. #222
    Juvenile Delinquent CVO Chris's Avatar
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    Down, down and down again. Not the markets but my mouse scroll wheel. *yawn*

  3. #223
    supervillain gerbick's Avatar
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    Down and down again... this time the stock market. 500 hundred point drop so far.

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  4. #224
    Spartan Mop Warrior Loyal Rogue's Avatar
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    Well good thing Bush got his $800+ billion or else it might have dropped a couple thousand according to his threats...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaG9d_4zij8

    I was wondering when Bush's Martial Law directive was going to rear it's ugly head.
    Now we know.
    If Bush hadn't gotten his $700 billion it looks like he would've declared Martial Law and suspended the elections.
    Why doesn't that surprise me anymore...?

    I guess now that they've stolen all of the money and power that was left they will graciously allow us to have our little elections and illusions of democracy.
    How nice.
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  5. #225
    Didn't do it. japangreg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlashLackey
    I realize that it's a pain. But, I'm going to have to ask you to support these findings with a study that covers more than 2006 and includes all lending that might have been affected by CRA rather than some isolated part. Their assertion alone is not enough to assume that the new data would compel the same conclusion.

    It would also be nice to get some data from an apparently neutral source considering how well-heeled the CRA lobby is.
    I'll have to get back to you on these - doing my best to balance work and school atm, internet arguments will have to suffer.
    There are many factors involved in housing market trends and I have already pointed out that I am not arguing that CRA is the only reason for the problem.
    I suppose that depends on what you think the 'problem' was/is: if you believe that sub-prime loans and their rate of default is the problem, then yes, that's probably true; but, if you think that what these loans ended up becoming and how they were handled is what caused this national and global mess, then it's only a small piece of the pie. It was the way bad debt was swapped and treated that caused the major institutions to fail, the bad debt they were passing around just happened to be mortgages in this case. The same situation could have occured with potentially any source of risk - it was how risk was obscured and played down that caused the problem.
    I disagree. I think that it is false to conclude that the increase in percentage of sub-prime loans has to be attributable to a law or regulation that occurred in 03. A previous law or regulation could have created the circumstances that allowed such an increase given other changes in climate to the market in general.
    Of course - not meant to imply otherwise, just meant that I was investigating the possibility.
    They say specifically that the act would equal corporate welfare, not the other items they reference later in that paragraph.
    Again, I cannot defend the claims made in that piece - although I'd hazard to say that 'corporate welfare' is a pretty accurate term.
    I realize that you are short on time, but I'm hoping that you will address the fundamental arguments I made. For instance, do you believe that regulation is a better approach to maintaining health in the financial markets?
    Thanks for the understanding, and I'll try to address your points as I am able. For the moment, I'd say that this current situation is the proof-positive of the need for regulation, especially given the role of credit swaps and their unregulated trade that caused this whole mess (60 Minutes did a good piece on this, A Look At Wall Street's Shadow Market - the rise of these swaps for speculation is attributed directly to the 2000 CFMA). By loop-holing their way around regulations on insurence for these debts, these companies slit their own throats. The very concept of a company being 'too big to fail' unsdercuts one of the very foundations of market-based approaches: they cannot be allowed to suffer consequences of failure, even when their own inefficiency or mistakes are the cause.
    Do you agree, as I have argued, that if institutions had to suffer the consequences of their own lending practices, they would be more motivated to lend only to people who would pay back?
    Undoubtedly; do you think that should also apply to those institutions who bought these instruments they weren't forced to? Isn't this entire bailout a way for the companies that didn't understand the consequences of their own practices to avoid the consequences?
    Wouldn't there be less of a market to sell bad loans to if the government didn't attempt to standardize, guarantee and promote them as being safe investments for big time investors?

    Or, do you think that the government should guarantee the loans in order to encourage investment and then hire a band of experts to watch over the process to make sure they are mostly good loans?
    I'm having trouble replying to this last part - going to have to think on it for a while. Not so much which end to come down on (agree with both) but how to frame my arguments. Hope I'll have a little more time this avo to fill it in.

    But, I wanted to just ask a simple question here that maybe someone can answer: if the bad loans are the problem, why was the bailout aimed at those who were backing the loans and not the borrowers themselves? Seems to me that if foreclosures and defaults were the problem, put the money there and the rest should right itself, no? Maybe people didn't want to reward those who made such bad decisions, but in the end we're doing that anyway with CEOs instead of homeowners. Sorry, bit rambly, been too long in the books for the day.
    Last edited by japangreg; 10-06-2008 at 01:25 PM.
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    That was Zen - this is Tao.

  6. #226
    Hood Rich FlashLackey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by japangreg
    I'll have to get back to you on these - doing my best to balance work and school atm, internet arguments will have to suffer.
    No worries. Don't feel like you're letting me down if you don't have time to continue this one. I feel like I've made my case and point on the subject and have some other things I should use the time on as well.

    ...

    In fact, I just deleted a much longer post in the interest of winding my input down for now. I've just put too much time into these debates lately.
    "We don't estimate speeches." - CBO Director Doug Elmendorf

  7. #227
    Peace - Just in Heaven koolbabs2000's Avatar
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    The American crash is beginning to tell on the other Economies across the globe a bit sooner than i expected. European, Japanese, Brazilian, Chinese and Indian are down.
    An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind
    - The Mahatma.

  8. #228
    supervillain gerbick's Avatar
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    Accountability. Seriously... you get bailed out and you use almost half of a mil for the executives to get a luxury spa treatment.

    The days of tar and feathering needs to start back soon.

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  9. #229
    I Mastered Dead Technology TallGuyLittleCar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerbick

    Here Here!


    You have been saying there would be a correction for some time... so congrats.. mostly
    ONLY RON PAUL AND ALUMINUM FOIL CAN SAVE YOU NOW!
    annoy your politician fairtax.org, a political forum

    Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabris, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.

  10. #230
    supervillain gerbick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TallGuyLittleCar
    Here Here!

    You have been saying there would be a correction for some time... so congrats.. mostly
    Don't remind me. I wanted to be wrong.

    [ Hello ] | [ gerbick ] | [ Ω ]

  11. #231
    pablo cruisin' hanratty21's Avatar
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    A good read.
    The Reckoning
    Taking Hard New Look at a Greenspan Legacy
    I've been pointing a finger his way for quite some time. Glad to see others coming around.
    "Why does it hurt when I pee?" -- F. Zappa |

  12. #232
    Retired SCORM Guru PAlexC's Avatar
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    Ok, tin foil hat time.

    Paulson just announced that he wants to buy equity stakes in US banks. Iceland just nationalized all (3) of theirs, and the UK is doing the same.

    When can we be paranoid about the New World Order stuff, and the end of times prophecies where you need to have the mark of the beast in order to buy or sell?

    I don't believe in all that, but it certainly popped into my head. What if the wackos are right?
    "What really bugs me is that my mom had the audacity to call Flash Kit a bunch of 'inept jack-asses'." - sk8Krog
    ...and now I have tape all over my face.

  13. #233
    pablo cruisin' hanratty21's Avatar
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    </tin foil hat time>
    "Why does it hurt when I pee?" -- F. Zappa |

  14. #234
    Flashkit historian Frets's Avatar
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    No one is going to give Paulson the time of day save Bush.
    His original throw money at the situation without controls was a bad idea.

    The public didn't like what AIG Goldman Saks and Leahman Brothers did.
    Everyone is seeing what a big scam the bailout was and they are not happy with congress or Paulson. While Paulson will be looking for a new job come January regardless so may every congress person who passed the bill.

  15. #235
    I Mastered Dead Technology TallGuyLittleCar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frets
    No one is going to give Paulson the time of day save Bush.
    .

    There was a law passed recently that pretty much gives Paulson the power to tell banks how to set their clocks.
    ONLY RON PAUL AND ALUMINUM FOIL CAN SAVE YOU NOW!
    annoy your politician fairtax.org, a political forum

    Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabris, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.

  16. #236
    Flashkit historian Frets's Avatar
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    And it did for the credit market, stock market and average americans what?

    Meanwhile AIG executives party like there is no tomorrow patting themselves on the back for pulling a fast one on the american government.

  17. #237
    He has risen! lefteyewilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by koolbabs2000
    The American crash is beginning to tell on the other Economies across the globe a bit sooner than i expected. European, Japanese, Brazilian, Chinese and Indian are down.
    thanks for that info. I'm going to have to get the internet to get that type of information. Do you think the economy is good enough to invest in this internet thingy right now?

  18. #238
    pablo cruisin' hanratty21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frets
    No one is going to give Paulson the time of day save Bush.
    His original throw money at the situation without controls was a bad idea
    No one is throwing any money without controls. You really need to leave this one alone...again. Didn't we already come to the conclusion that controls were necessary...especially after he said it 14 times in front of the American public in a televised congress session?
    Quote Originally Posted by Frets
    The public didn't like what AIG Goldman Saks and Leahman Brothers did.
    I am not quite sure what Goldman has done. Please explain this to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Frets
    Everyone is seeing what a big scam the bailout was and they are not happy with congress or Paulson.
    Where is this big scam you speak of? Scam? Seriously? Come on...until you have a grasp on what the concept of this plan is, the conspiracy thing just seems ridiculous.
    "Why does it hurt when I pee?" -- F. Zappa |

  19. #239
    supervillain gerbick's Avatar
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    Not speaking from anything but my personal feelings; however, I do not like how AIG is currently perceived. Got 85 billion, asking for 38.5 billion more... yet the whole incident with the execs goes off without really too much coverage.

    Yeah. Not a scam. More like a damn shame.

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  20. #240
    Flashkit historian Frets's Avatar
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    Thats not even the whole story. So AIG goes back and asks for more money with it and they were planning another posh shin dig.

    After the media ran with the first story they decided to rethink the Ritz Carlton retreat/seminiar.
    http://www.wxyz.com/mostpopular/stor...9-1f1d333b66cc

    Meanwhile. Apparently The treasury dept was calling 800 of the top wall street firms telling them not to worry about the bills safe guards to keep ceo's from running off with the money. The Fox is watching the hen house.
    Congress has no say in how the bailout money is spent or on the liability of CEO's because Congress won't be controlling the actual flow of capital or acting as police.

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