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Thread: Flash Websites and the business bottom line

  1. #1
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    Flash Websites and the business bottom line

    Hey,

    Here is a boring one for you...
    I'm looking to hear people's rational and links to any good articles supporting Flash sites as a good business idea, that can make you money.

    Searching "flash and business" seems to always take me to sites that complain about usability, accessibility and SEO, which we all know are issues that can be resolved.

    I have always wondered how those big digital agencies pitch their work from a business point of view, leaving the "cool and rich experience" factor out.

    In other words, How can flash help businesses bottom line?

  2. #2
    Spartan Mop Warrior Loyal Rogue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForwardSlash
    I'm looking to hear people's rational and links to any good articles supporting Flash sites as a good business idea, that can make you money.
    ...
    In other words, How can flash help businesses bottom line?
    Business owner needs website.
    Business owner sees cool Flash websites and wants his website to look cool too.
    We provide business owner with cool looking website.
    Business owner pays us.
    That makes us money, and helps our bottom line.

  3. #3
    Hood Rich FlashLackey's Avatar
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    Generally speaking, big digital agencies don't have to pitch the value of using flash for appropriate situations because their clients are big and savvy enough to already know that kind of thing. Usually, the big digital agencies are being asked up front for a "flash site", "flash application", "flash game", etc. The clients that those agencies work with often want immersive and or very customized experiences to represent their products and brand. Flash is a cost-effective and capable platform in those cases.

    I sense that this question is being asked because of some more specific information that you aren't giving us? Is a client saying that they don't want flash used for a part of their site? Something like that?
    "We don't estimate speeches." - CBO Director Doug Elmendorf

  4. #4
    Flashkit historian Frets's Avatar
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    Agrees with the above.

    Either client gets flash or they don't. If they have a stigmatism about flash best to not fight the client. Accept that some people just prefer torch and dancing skeletons gifs and there is nothing that will change it.

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    Thanks for the fast answers.

    The clients that those agencies work with often want immersive and or very customized experiences to represent their products and brand. Flash is a cost-effective and capable platform in those cases
    Comments like these are why flash stands out and should be chosen above other platforms, so they are a great help. Thanks.

    FlashLackey, to answer your question...

    I work in an agency that does mainly really good design work as well as good solid development (.net, css...)
    It is part of our vision and future plans to try and encompass or (even shift) to a business model that includes reach media experiences. It is part of my role to educate others in the agency about the potential of flash and bespoke interactivity.

    I find it hard to try and quantify the value of a flash website to a sales person that then can go and sell it onto a client, when normally they talk to the clients about return on investment from a sales and revenue perspective.
    They find it hard telling the client that "building a flash game for your site is going to help you sell more running shoes" mainly because it is not as easily quantifiable with straight forward sale numbers.

    So i guess the question is how is flash beneficial to a business and is their any articles or papers written to support that argument that i can share with those wanting to be enlightened?

    Either client gets flash or they don't
    I disagree, If you can educate and show clients how and why flash sites will make them money, they will go for it in a heartbeat. I know if someone said to me "build a flash micro site and you will double your sales, and here is the data and examples to prove it, and this is how and why it happens..." I would probably pay attention and "get" it in a hurry.

    Thanks for all the answers and food for thought.

  6. #6
    Bearded (M|G)od MyFriendIsATaco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForwardSlash
    I disagree, If you can educate and show clients how and why flash sites will make them money, they will go for it in a heartbeat. I know if someone said to me "build a flash micro site and you will double your sales, and here is the data and examples to prove it, and this is how and why it happens..." I would probably pay attention and "get" it in a hurry.
    It just doesn't work like that, dude.

    You should not be selling Flash for what it is. You're focusing too much on the buzz word than the end result. You're basically trying to sell a platform and a tool to your clients, which, doesn't make sense. You need to be selling them the end result.

    Flash can be used for good and bad, and as a big Flash developer myself, I know when things should be done with Flash and when they shouldn't. In most business worlds, it does not make sense. It's just a tricky dynamic that should be analyzed by the clients needs and weigh the pros and cons before you are set on a technology.

    It's impossible to tell a client that using Flash is going to double their sales. Think of it as saying, "If we build your site using .NET over PHP, you'll double your sales." It just doesn't make sense. Flash is just another tool. Your Flash site could end up hurting them if not done properly.

    Clients don't necessarily even need to be involved on the technology side of things. If they say they want this rich immersive environment, THEN bring up Flash and explain some pros and cons to them about the technology and let them decide if they still want to go that route.

    And FlashLacky is right when he says bigger clients at least already know what Flash is and know if it's going to be beneficial for their company or not.

    Most mom and pop clients, no. Just stay away from Flash.

  7. #7
    Hood Rich FlashLackey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForwardSlash
    I work in an agency that does mainly really good design work as well as good solid development (.net, css...)
    It is part of our vision and future plans to try and encompass or (even shift) to a business model that includes reach media experiences. It is part of my role to educate others in the agency about the potential of flash and bespoke interactivity.
    Ok. That helps to understand the situation. And, there is good reason to want to make that shift since many of the companies that have large ad budgets to throw at the internet invest in rich media experiences.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForwardSlash
    I find it hard to try and quantify the value of a flash website to a sales person that then can go and sell it onto a client, when normally they talk to the clients about return on investment from a sales and revenue perspective.
    They find it hard telling the client that "building a flash game for your site is going to help you sell more running shoes" mainly because it is not as easily quantifiable with straight forward sale numbers.
    Ok. I think that this is the selling point:

    Building a flash application or component into your web site is an investment into expanding the intellectual property of your brand. The flash platform is the most cost-effective way to build highly customized, creative presentations that nobody else has. There certainly is room for creativity in other platforms. But, it is mostly creative ways of presenting the content. Flash allows the client to (relatively inexpensively) get more creative with functionality.

    Using flash can deliver the opportunity to offer a new way of doing or seeing things that is not available anywhere else. When done well or in an innovative way, people can, have and will go to the site just to see it working or to experience it.

    How many times have you been shown a link to check out a new site for the sake of the site (rather than content) that did not contain some flash?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForwardSlash
    So i guess the question is how is flash beneficial to a business and is their any articles or papers written to support that argument that i can share with those wanting to be enlightened?
    I'm not sure if there are many papers. Probably are some somewhere. But, I think that the best thing to point to would be examples of good flash use. For example, www.nikeid.com . Since you mentioned running shoes.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForwardSlash
    I disagree, If you can educate and show clients how and why flash sites will make them money, they will go for it in a heartbeat. I know if someone said to me "build a flash micro site and you will double your sales, and here is the data and examples to prove it, and this is how and why it happens..." I would probably pay attention and "get" it in a hurry.
    I think that what he was saying is that a site "being flash" isn't the "how and why" the sites make them money. He has a good point. The best way to educate the sales people is not to insist that they should "sell flash." It's to make sure they understand what flash can do and to recognize client needs that can take advantage of those specific capabilities.
    "We don't estimate speeches." - CBO Director Doug Elmendorf

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    I agree that flash itself is just another tool, and the end result is what matters. The important thing is to deliver the best solution to the clients needs, whatever the platform.

    What I was going for was the selling point of why rich media can be good for your business (thanks FlashLackey)

    We work for big international and UK clients (Car, electronic and computer manufacturers and many others) and trying to sell to them the benefit of a rich media experience, when this is not what we are known for, is a bit of a challenge.

    A shift of business model can be tricky and take years.
    Our current portfolio dosen't help us get clients to come to us and ask for this type of work, but we do have the ears of the right people and we would like to explain to them the benefits of the rich media experience whenever the opportunity arises and its appropriate for their needs.

    All views and opinions on the subject are greatly appreciated and do help us define what we are trying to do. Keep them coming.

    Thanks

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    flash is like an option for a car. it doesnt get u from point A to point B, but it adds a bit of comfort or makes u look a little cooler when driving.

    Like how business wants to sell its product or service. If u can not provide evident that flash gimmick really increases sells then client will always look at it as an option, especially at these down times.

  10. #10
    Hood Rich FlashLackey's Avatar
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    I don't think that's quite right. In fact, in many cases, it's just the opposite. Flash provides functionality that is either completely impossible or relatively much more expensive to accomplish with other platforms.
    "We don't estimate speeches." - CBO Director Doug Elmendorf

  11. #11
    Total Universe Mod jAQUAN's Avatar
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    I want to echo what Taco said and point out what a great example nikeid.com is.
    A marketing campaign is a means to an end. The bulk of conversations with a client should be about strategy, not parts and labor. You don't make a campaign fit the tool, you devise tools to pull off the pitch. If the conversation leads to a point where the extra interactivity/functionality is needed and flash is the cheapest best solution ie. the nikeid shoe designer, that is the only point where you can argue flash and ROI.

    We are not short order cooks who just give the client what they asked for. It is our duty and responsibility to coach a client into the most cost effective situation. I actually make my clients defend their need to have a site at all. It really accelerates deciphering their wants from their needs.

    On a related note, flash is a veil. It is not content. I try to recommend flash as a more compelling way to present data that already exists. Only clients who can afford medium to large banner and search marketing budgets should consider micro site solutions like most of thefwa.com's content.

  12. #12
    supervillain gerbick's Avatar
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    Flash has always been "a presentational layer" to me. Now that I've gotten deeper into Flex, I'll definitely say that the Flash platform is a (logical) presentational layer.

    I just find that my dev time(s) ramp up the moment I say Adobe Flex. But my maintenance time drops majorly.

    [ Hello ] | [ gerbick ] | [ Ω ]

  13. #13
    OGC creativeinsomnia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlashLackey
    Generally speaking, big digital agencies don't have to pitch the value of using flash for appropriate situations because their clients are big and savvy enough to already know that kind of thing.
    I wish it was like that.

    We work with a lot of big clients and continually have to walk them through what they need to do to bring their brand to their demographic. They always want something rich and viral but they dont know the technology behind it.

    That's our job as an ad agency, that's our space, we recommend the best approach to the solution.

    When you work in a "big agency", you typically dont get approached with "We want a flash site". You get approached with a new product launch, new brand, etc, and you need come up with a concept that will drive results towards the clients desired goals. That could range from anything from a full on social networking site, to a million dollar flash banner campaign.

    I guess it's different depending on where you work but you said "big digital agency". When i do freelance, I get approached with specific needs like "I need a flash site" or "I need a widget/facebook app" etc...

  14. #14
    Hood Rich FlashLackey's Avatar
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    Hmm. Maybe you are working with more corporatish companies or something? In doing this for over five years (within a "big digital agency" and representing our own agency), I have never had to sell why flash was the right solution to any large company.

    I think what you are referring to is the difference between a full service marketing solution and a single project. Yes, in a full service situation, you have to determine what best use of their budget is and that can involve multiple technologies, products. But, I can confirm that big companies do regularly "ask for a flash site." Or, if they ask for a more generic solution, they either already assume we will build it in flash or don't question that decision. But, maybe it's because the sectors we tend to work with do a ton of that work and already have in-house tech people that know what they are doing.

    [I think that ForwardSlash is saying that they want their company to pick a little bit of the Big Spaceship, Schematic or maybe even R/GA type vibe. There may be exceptions. But, trust me that I can confirm that those companies are not spending any significant amount of time telling people why flash is valuable and they are being asked to build flash games, sites and applications. I might know a little bit about the origins of web applications at running shoe companies too. ]
    Last edited by FlashLackey; 02-22-2009 at 05:33 PM.
    "We don't estimate speeches." - CBO Director Doug Elmendorf

  15. #15
    OGC creativeinsomnia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlashLackey
    But, trust me that I can confirm that those companies are not spending any significant amount of time telling people why flash is valuable and they are being asked to build flash games, sites and applications. I might know a little bit about the origins of web applications at running shoe companies too. ]
    We're not spending a "significant amount of time telling people why flash is valuable" either. Nobody really needs to do that anymore.

    I'm just saying that in my experience at a large agency, we have to approach the problem before flash is even mentioned. If we decide that flash is the solution, then we simply explain and back it up.

    Yeah, when you're talking about Big Spaceship, you're right. They do a ton of movie sites, so I'm sure they're just asked to create a movie flash site.

    I would imagine R/GA does more of what we do than a Big Spaceship or Schematic.

    We are more of a full service digital agency in the sense that our strength is starting from the ground on a campaign and doing everything from strategy to the actual build. Usually we are the AOR for our clients who also have robust tech teams in place.

    Every agency is built different. I wish we could do the work Big Spaceship does, that's the fun stuff.

  16. #16
    Hood Rich FlashLackey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by creativeinsomnia
    Every agency is built different. I wish we could do the work Big Spaceship does, that's the fun stuff.
    Indeed. I get the impression that's what ForwardSlash's company wants to delve into. You're right that a lot depends on how agencies are built. I just think that when you're working with clients of a size where they have an in-house tech department, you don't really have to "sell flash." You just sell creative ideas that would best be built in flash and nobody (that I have observed) questions that. Mom and pop businesses are another story.
    "We don't estimate speeches." - CBO Director Doug Elmendorf

  17. #17
    Flashkit historian Frets's Avatar
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    Smaller companies can gain from flash too however the problem is that it's usually poorly implimented because the client is afraid of bigger marketing companies so they hire an amatuer flash designer. Someone who doesn't have the skills or vision. If the low end designer is smart they buy a template. Then do sufficent research on the companies existing brand identity and mold that to the template. If they aren't smart the wallow in half baked ideas and put out anything just to finish the project.

  18. #18
    Hood Rich FlashLackey's Avatar
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    I've seen that. I think also that the minimum effort for flash work is higher than what some small companies are used to. They have a hard time understanding why something in flash would cost $1500 when some guy just pitched them an HTML site for $250.
    "We don't estimate speeches." - CBO Director Doug Elmendorf

  19. #19
    Total Universe Mod jAQUAN's Avatar
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    Man I wish I could elaborate on a project I'm just finishing. It's extremely relevant to this thread.

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