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Thread: Elements. Fantasy cards game

  1. #801
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    I'll admit that earthquake is overpowered but there are ways around it. Just up the cost to 2 or 3 and it'll be fine probably. I play a pillarless nova/immo deck similiar to Samura's(we both were experiementing at the time and he gave me the idea for it) and I love it when opponents ahve useless earthquakes. There are only a small percentage of pillarless players like me and Samura because people have trouble balancing such a deck out(I get mastery wins about 50% of the time with mine actually).

    Also I think druidic staff nees to be upgraded somewhat because it has almost no value in decks anywhere. I think it would be cool to have druidic staff have a similiar function to fahrenheit except for healing instead.

  2. #802
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    IMHO earthquake IS an umbalanced card, and the simple fact that is necessary to think to apposite deck to counterbalance it is a simple but unquestionable proof. If a card is such game-breaking to force every player to think to apposite coutermeasur it means is really too ubalanced.

  3. #803
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    @ Dekalinder

    Abso****in'lutely!!!

    A card should not have an effect like this one has. I was just playing with my Aether Deck. I sent out 6 Aether Pillars!!! My opponent then played 2 Novas and 2 Earthquakes!!! That left me with 7 Pillars in my deck and no pillars out on the field!!!

    Dissipation Shield: I got a great idea that people haven't mentioned yet. Make it so that you can only have 6 Quantum pillars in your deck just like it used to be.

    In conclusion, please just remove the card Earthquake for it is wreaking havoc with all "Elemental Pure" Decks. Keeping this card could result in pillars going completely useless or have everyone having Novas and Enchant Artifacts in their deck. NOT GOOD!!!

  4. #804
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeta711 View Post
    @ Dekalinder
    A card should not have an effect like this one has. I was just playing with my Aether Deck. I sent out 6 Aether Pillars!!! My opponent then played 2 Novas and 2 Earthquakes!!! That left me with 7 Pillars in my deck and no pillars out on the field!!!
    Yes.. farming wins with Aether is over now - is that bad? ... I think is good! .. the game is much more balanced now!

    You dropped 6 pillars .. your bad .. you didn't play it well .. drop 1 or 2 .. he destroy you drop 1 he destroy .. then you drop the rest 3-4 .. next you'll have a PUniverse or a Dimensional shield ready .. and the chances for him to destroy again is remote so you can hold PU/DS and get the your Dragon on the table on round 4 or 5 with enough quantum to stack on a PUnivers

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeta711 View Post
    Dissipation Shield: I got a great idea that people haven't mentioned yet. Make it so that you can only have 6 Quantum pillars in your deck just like it used to be.
    If you nerf Quantum Pillars then less strategies can be done on the game .. so will be bad

    The Dissipation Shield is not overpowered - lets go to the limit: 1 Rustler 1 Dissipation Shield 2 Enchant Artifact (1 for the pillar and 1 for the Shield) 56 Quantum Pillar .. assuming that you have luck on getting this 56x3=168 and (168/12)(rustler) and 1 (mark) you'll have 183 damage you can get per turn ... now assuming that no poison, no direct damage, no momentum and no Eternity is involved ... but the opponent have yet 23 slots for creatures and 1 for weapon .... and that can hit more than 183 ... of course not "normal" decks will do that amount of damage per turn .. but a 54 pillar deck working properly is much less normal ...
    Last edited by -Samura-; 07-07-2009 at 12:47 PM.

  5. #805
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Samura- View Post
    You dropped 6 pillars .. your bad .. you didn't play it well .. drop 1 or 2 .. he destroy you drop 1 he destroy .. than you drop the rest 3-4 .. next you'll have a PUniverse or a Dimensional shield ready .. and the chances for him to destroy again is remote so you can hold PU/DS and get the your Dragon on the table on round 4 or 5 with enough quantum to stack on a PUnivers
    Don't plan card balance around the AI being trickable. If that were a smart human they'd let you sit happy on that followup one pillar until they had a spare earthquake - 2 quantums a turn isn't enough to really run much of anything fast enough to fight them.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Samura- View Post
    The Dissipation Shield is not overpowered - lets go to the limit: 1 Rustler 1 Dissipation Shield 2 Enchant Artifact (1 for the pillar and 1 for the Shield) 56 Quantum Pillar .. assuming that you have luck on getting this 56x3=168 and (168/12)(rustler) and 1 (mark) you'll have 183 damage you can get per turn ... now assuming that no poison, no direct damage, no momentum and no Eternity is involved ... but the opponent have yet 23 slots for creatures and 1 for weapon .... and that can hit more than 183 ... of course not "normal" decks will do that amount of damage per turn .. but a 54 pillar deck working properly is much less normal ...
    You seem to be forgetting that it's cumulative - a deck only would need a high quantum count for a few turns to gain so much life as to be unrealistically killable.

    I don't know that the shield is a problem, but your example doesn't prove it isn't.

  6. #806
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bianary View Post
    2 quantums a turn isn't enough to really run much of anything fast enough to fight them.
    then the deck is heavily/mainly depending on pillars and not fast enough which in my opinion is not a strong deck

    Quote Originally Posted by Bianary View Post
    You seem to be forgetting that it's cumulative - a deck only would need a high quantum count for a few turns to gain so much life as to be unrealistically killable.
    I'm not forgetting the cumulatibality of the quantums .. my argument was in the pace per turn because in the long run is that what counts

    Quote Originally Posted by Bianary View Post
    but your example doesn't prove it isn't.
    if you want to add the cumulative quantums then you'll have to take into account the damage it will be taken in the meanwhile too .. and in a very simple linear approximation, if in the final the shield can't handle the final damage per turn then it would not been able to hold the damage in the meanwhile also .. it would be just not sustainable

    Quote Originally Posted by Bianary View Post
    Don't plan card balance around the AI being trickable.
    Maybe you have a point on that - that is why I think is too soon to make early judgments around a single card - only with human player opponent we can be sure about earthquake ...

    but also I think is too soon because people are still adjusting decks ...

    people are expecting that new cards will done nothing to his working-well deck, but if the new cards done nothing, then what would be the fun of it? it would be useless adding something new..

    .. new cards = new strategies ... and that is that ... people think this mean that is broken because old strategies doesn't work anymore .. so ? just build a new one..
    Last edited by -Samura-; 07-07-2009 at 12:42 PM.

  7. #807
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Samura- View Post
    then the deck is heavily/mainly depending on pillars and not fast enough which in my opinion is not a strong deck
    Aether is simply expensive for a lot of power -- that shouldn't be completely neutralized by one card.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Samura- View Post
    I'm not forgetting the cumulatibality of the quantums .. my argument was in the pace per turn because in the long run is that what counts

    if you want to add the cumulative quantums then you'll have to take into account the damage it will be taken in the meanwhile too .. and in a very simple linear approximation, if in the final the shield can't handle the final damage per turn then it would not been able to hold the damage in the meanwhile also .. it would be just not sustainable
    There's a problem with this view, though. Health isn't a boolean - you're not just alive or dead, you have 100 points of it. So it's possible that you can get a fast start on building quantums over your opponent and then even if they end up outdamaging your production by the end will run out of cards before you run out of life. This is also why the "no direct damage" is misleading - it has to be enough direct damage to deal 100 points of damage, which is only likely to occur in a couple deck formats.

  8. #808
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    Where is Zanzarino? Does he usually not post during the week?

    And I also think that druid staff needs to be stronger. It is very inefficient when compared to the stiletto.

    Also, if quantum pillar is going to be changed back to a max of 6, then you should add a few other multi type pillars.
    Last edited by Garruk; 07-07-2009 at 01:40 PM.

  9. #809
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bianary View Post
    Health isn't a boolean - you're not just alive or dead, you have 100 points of it.
    right .. and I'm not saying it is ... i'm saying it is not sustainable ... unless..

    Quote Originally Posted by Bianary View Post
    So it's possible that you can get a fast start on building quantums over your opponent and then even if they end up outdamaging your production by the end will run out of cards before you run out of life.
    but that is the only strength and the win-strategy of a shield deck .. holding the damage enough turns for the opponent get out of cards ...

    ... people saying that is broken only because is a different strategy is simply not an argument ...

    in conclusion - ending out of cards before killing the opponent is a situation that any damage-strategy have to take into account as a possible loss when building the deck
    Last edited by -Samura-; 07-07-2009 at 01:25 PM.

  10. #810
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Samura- View Post
    ... people saying that is broken only because is a different strategy is simply not an argument ...
    If it's broken, it's broken because it requires too much specialization to get around it -- it invalidates too many decks. It is not because it is simply a different strategy.

    As I said, I don't know if the dissipation shield is broken or not.

  11. #811
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    I think all of us except Sanura agree that earthquake is OP. I don't think it needs to be completely removed form the game it just needs to have its cost increased.

    As for dissipation shield its fine as it is. probably the average for it is 10-12 QP while it isn't very deep into the game. Thats 3-4 dragons, 10-12 fireflies and queens, or whatever other combinations fo monsters you want to overcome it. Most decks should also be able to get some monsters out to damage the opponent before he's able to build up a large enough amount of quantums to fend you off for the rest of the game. This would force them to throw the shield up early. It takes quite a few turns to be able to get that many QP up so in reality your deck should be able to break them and once you do break them its game over for the opponent because THEY HAVE 0 QUANTA LEFT. If your deck can't muster up the stength to beat this kind of deck its not bad card design on Zanzarino's part, but bad deck design on YOUR part for not being able to overcome multiple strategies and instead relying on the premise that to win your opponent has to attack your hp. Your deck should be able to adapt to new situations that arise form new cards being introduced into the game and if it can't then its probably better off that you find a new strategy and start experimenting. Thats what i did. I experimented and ended up with a deck that is able to overcome every deck type. It isn't always able to because of a bad draw, but every deck is susceptible to that. I'm always ready to change my deck up if I feel that I can make an even better deck thats more suited to the current playing environment. I'll probably still go with my pillarless deck after earthquake is nerfed beause this deck is able to go up against every kind of deck.

    So from now on just because your deck is having trouble going up against a new card don't say its overpowered. Try experimenting and changing your deck around some. The only time a card is really overpowered is when it completely changes the game environment around it. Dissipation shield doesn't do that because a good deck should be able to hit for plenty more than 30-40 damage a turn. The only cards that have really fallen into the category of OP have been nova(back when it was 2 of each quantum), miracle(everyone played it for double points), owls eye(tons of flying owls eye decks were made because it could exterminate entire fields of monsters easily and cheaply), and earthquake(people have to use nova or earth element so that they are able to use it and defend against it). Dimensional shield might be overpowered, but its the pure defensive strategy for aether and until it gets some new cards introduced then you can't touch anything about aether.

  12. #812
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    @DarkGate

    I agree almost on all your post .. although:

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkGate View Post
    earthquake(people have to use nova or earth element so that they are able to use it and defend against it)
    .. or Immolation

    so there are 7 ways on defending from it:

    1 - Nova
    2 - Earth element
    3 - Immolation
    4 - Quantum pillar
    5 - Earth pillar
    6 - Multi pillar stack
    7 - In-game playing with caution on dropping resources

    The problem is that although right now everyone can use it with Nova and/or Immolation if Earthquake got nerfed by cost then the Earth element will be too strong in face of others that cannot use any Earthquake ... right now we have a somewhat (dynamic) equilibrium ... if it got cost increased then I actually believe it will unbalance the gameplay rather than balance it

    And if it got nerfed by increasing more than 3 it will be too unpractical to be eligible on putting in any deck

    If it got nerfed by effect: less than 2 is just not worthy (because of the spetialization of the card)

    In this thinking I only see one possible nerfing.. cost 1; effect destroy 2 pillars

    but then, if it got nerfed I'd say that Enchant Artifact could not continue to be able on protecting an entire pile of pillars even if the the pillars are putting after the enchantment as it stands right now ..

    So (if Earthquake get nerfed) I'd suggest to modify the effect of Enchant Art by:

    - an Enchant Artifact on a pile will only protect the pillars that was there
    - pillars after that will pile on a diferent pile even if they are the same element to avoid confusion

  13. #813
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Samura- View Post
    The problem is that although right now everyone can use it with Nova and/or Immolation if Earthquake got nerfed by cost then the Earth element will be too strong in face of others that cannot use any Earthquake ... right now we have a somewhat (dynamic) equilibrium ... if it got cost increased then I actually believe it will unbalance the gameplay rather than balance it
    I don't see how restricting it to those with enough earth to run it at a higher cost will unbalance the game. A broken card does not get less broken by being usable by everyone, it just gets more popular. In this case, raising the cost to make it less broken (Slower to play) has the side effect of restricting it to people who are running the earth element, but that alone isn't going to make game balance worse.
    Last edited by Bianary; 07-07-2009 at 03:38 PM.

  14. #814
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Samura- View Post
    @DarkGate

    I agree almost on all your post .. although:



    .. or Immolation

    so there are 7 ways on defending from it:

    1 - Nova
    2 - Earth element
    3 - Immolation
    4 - Quantum pillar
    5 - Earth pillar
    6 - Multi pillar stack
    7 - In-game playing with caution on dropping resources

    The problem is that although right now everyone can use it with Nova and/or Immolation if Earthquake got nerfed by cost then the Earth element will be too strong in face of others that cannot use any Earthquake ... right now we have a somewhat (dynamic) equilibrium ... if it got cost increased then I actually believe it will unbalance the gameplay rather than balance it

    And if it got nerfed by increasing more than 3 it will be too unpractical to be eligible on putting in any deck

    If it got nerfed by effect: less than 2 is just not worthy (because of the spetialization of the card)

    In this thinking I only see one possible nerfing.. cost 1; effect destroy 2 pillars

    but then, if it got nerfed I'd say that Enchant Artifact could not continue to be able on protecting an entire pile of pillars even if the the pillars are putting after the enchantment as it stands right now ..

    So (if Earthquake get nerfed) I'd suggest to modify the effect of Enchant Art by:

    - an Enchant Artifact on a pile will only protect the pillars that was there
    - pillars after that will pile on a diferent pile even if they are the same element to avoid confusion
    There's 4 ways really:

    #7 works only with AI,
    #4 QP decks are affected even more since destroying 1 QP is like destroying 3 pillars, so in effect earthquake destroys 9 pillars for QP decks (QP decks need several pillars to be effective, since its random and not specialized in 1 element)
    #6 Destroying 6 pillars of 1 element is the same as destroying 3 pillars of 2 elements. except that a 2-element deck is going to be even worse off since 1 element they have no source of if destroyed (mark), and half their deck is unable to be played

    Even with 4 ways to counter, it limits the a player's use of strategies and other elements. There are so many more strategies than nova/immo, and there are more elements than just Earth. That is why the remaining arguments don't suffice. lol

  15. #815
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bianary View Post
    I don't see how restricting it to those with enough earth to run it at a higher cost will unbalance the game.
    set a Earth-mark element
    say it cost 2 to play
    2nd turn destroy 3
    but no one can destroy his pillars

    =

    unbalance

    (if it cost 3 is the same, if it cost 4 is not worthy even for an Earth-mark)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bianary View Post
    A broken card does not get less broken by being usable by everyone, it just gets more popular.
    I never said it is broken... I'm saying: if is overpowered (not broken) then blahblahblah....

    (sorry .. let me joke a litle ... - looking at your argument I could say "Creatures are broken - because - he just dropped a creature and are ripping my HP off!" ... but is not broken .. because ... everyone can play creatures!! .. same for pillars: "OMG .. pillars are popular and completely broken ... everyone is playing with pillars ...!!" .. jkjk )


    Quote Originally Posted by Disaru View Post
    There are so many more strategies than nova/immo, and there are more elements than just Earth.
    I completely agree on that, the difference is that I think it will work properly even with Earthquake as it is

    btw - is very rare destroying always 3 pillars .. the mean is between 3+2+1 and 3+2+2 (and usable Earthquakes only 3 out of 6) .. so is in mean 6,5 pillars destroyed .. that is why I'm saying if nerfed to be

    cost:1 ; effect: destroy 2

    will let people stay in the beginning with not all pillars destroyed and maintain the average 2+2+2 = 6 ... also more people can use it with cost 1 for not make unbalanced powerful Earth-marks in face of others
    Last edited by -Samura-; 07-07-2009 at 04:20 PM.

  16. #816
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Samura- View Post
    set a Earth-mark element
    say it cost 2 to play
    2nd turn destroy 3
    but no one can destroy his pillars

    =

    unbalance
    Then the card itself is broken, it being open to "anyone" (Who still has to have earth available, which actually means it's not nearly everyone) does not make it more or less balanced.

    Plus people keep saying earth is weak. So it being able to destroy enemy pillars but them not destroying its pillars means it's not going to instantly be a balance issue (Though I really don't like the card myself, I don't believe you're correct about it being a problem if it's restricted to more earth focused decks using it.)

    When I say broken, I mean overpowered. It needs fixing.
    Last edited by Bianary; 07-07-2009 at 04:57 PM.

  17. #817
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    Oo It's like a miricle! but it kills!

    muhahaha





    imo life needs a bump up, the healing they got (which is there "thing") is NOTHING compared to this, not even MIRICLE, is like this...

    *is evil*
    -nomi

  18. #818
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    @Zanzarino,

    I see Earthquake got cost increased I'm completely ok and agree with that - all my discussion here was more to set a counterpart

    (I'd prefer effect decreased instead of increasing cost tho ..)

    But now with Earthquake underpromoted I think the Enchant Artifact is acting with too much strength

    So I'd like to suggest:

    Quote Originally Posted by -Samura- View Post
    I'd say that Enchant Artifact could not continue to be able on protecting an entire pile of pillars even if the the pillars are putting after the enchantment as it stands right now ..

    So (if Earthquake get nerfed) I'd suggest to modify the effect of Enchant Art by:

    - an Enchant Artifact on a pile will only protect the pillars that was there
    - pillars after that will pile on a diferent pile even if they are the same element to avoid confusion

  19. #819
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    Wow that's a lot of replies from just my post.

    Thank you Bianary. You understand that we can't strategize playing our pillars. Having a card like Earthquake is just too much. I think Deflagration is already enough. Besides it's causing too much chaos with people having to completely re-vamp their decks because of it. I don't have a huge problem with the Dissipation Shield but Earthquake is messing up the game.

    @ Disaru & Samura

    Good job Disaru on pointing out Samura's flaws on his suggestions. Now get me here. I don't mean to pick on you Samura, but you proved my point about having to strategize against Earthquake. People don't want to change their decks just because of 1 freakin' card.

    @ Samura

    #5 is messed up too because the 2 players would just be earthquaking each other therefore causing a shortage of pillars on both sides making the game very boring.

    Also I somewhat agree with Samura about the Enchant Artifact. Except change it so that it uses 3 random Quantum instead of 1 earth so it can be used by all players therefore adding more strategy about when to use it. This also offers a massive counter to Earthquake for every deck. I think we could leave Earthquake as is and change Enchant artifact back to the way it was.

    What do you guys think?

  20. #820
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    Just a note Zeta - I feel you can be careful with your pillars if you know you're fighting an earthquake deck, it was just that expecting people to pull earthquakes with single pillars was unrealistic. In your example, you could easily have just dropped 4 and kept 2 in reserve, to get some initial quanta and then have a reserve if you got quaked a couple times.

    Anyway, the idea I had was for earth/gravity and the hammer card. Right now its wording is very confusing - it makes it sound like the hammer is granting damage to earth and gravity creatures (Because elementals -- ie, the players -- don't deal damage) and I never thought that was really broken. So maybe a card like the hammer could be put in but that does that - it would basically do a nightfall effect on damage only but for gravity/earth (Neither of which has massively high damage) and be a weapon rather than just an artifact. Limit of one bonus, same as nightfall.

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