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Thread: I'm at loss in everything!!!

  1. #1
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    I'm at loss in everything!!!

    To explain, the few things I'm about to go over are the only real problems I have at the moment(atm) and they are the only things holding me back from accomplishing what I want to do.

    Firstly, I'm at a loss at 3d in general, both in flash (away3d engine) and in a c/c++ 3d graphics engine called Irrlicht. I just get so lost when it comes to side engines to the actual programming language they are made in.

    I don't know (idk) why but I always have a hard time dealing with side engines because it makes me feel like I'm using the language I'm using all the time in a totally different way and that I'm using a totally different language at the same time. So you people can feel my situation with that. I feel the same way with Irrlicht only I don't really use c/c++ actually, not once have I attempted c/c++ without using Irrlicht at the same time.

    Secondly I am having trouble with some online flash making too. I have the entire online part down and I use my own xmlSocket server scripted with about 150 lines of javascript. I already got online parts to it down and am doing quite fine. Only I have reached the impass that every online application maker hates. SPEED!

    I can't figure how to overcome it, but when I try to send over compressed encoded strings of objects over the server at a reasonably fast fps when there is more than 4 clients sending at the that rate simultaneously, it just slows down everyone. All the clients other than the player himself stop receiving data at the speed desired and have long delays.

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    Continued post:

    Continued:

    Well besides the fact that I can't overcome the online fast sending, I also want to try to make one last thing work, but there doesn't seem to be an answer. I want to be able to record what is spoke into the microphone and relay it from flash to my server, and then to all other clients. Nobody seems to have an answer besides flash communications server. And I don't want that because it seems like it will be asking for side engine coding which I just hate. And I would prefer not mixing my code up too much with other side engines, it just makes it confusing to me.

    So can anyone help me in any of my problems at all?! I'm so at a loss that I haven't tried getting back to programming for about 2 weeks and that is because these problems are the only things blocking what I am currently trying to do.

  3. #3
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    this is depressing,
    1.st make yourself a simple list of what you really want to archive (just what matters), then make another list that lists the steps that are required for that. With that you should be able to make out what to do next.

    Besides that I think that your post could use some structure as well,- whats up with all the 3d and then side engines. The same with c++ and then flash making. Just strip away what you don't need to say and define your goals clearly so that people can actually help you.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Ray Beez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by renderhjs View Post
    this is depressing,
    1.st make yourself a simple list of what you really want to archive
    He meant to say "achieve".

    As for feeling like you're using two different languages when using engines, I understand your pain. But, if you would learn the core language first, you wouldn't feel this way because you'd then see very clearly how the "side engine" is really just a bunch of functions someone made to save you time from coding your own functions.

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    Senior Member Pazil's Avatar
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    I hope you really didn't think that Flash and Real-time multiplayer game making was easy...
    WIP-ZOMBIES

    I love vegetarians! More meat for the rest of us!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Beez View Post
    He meant to say "achieve".

    As for feeling like you're using two different languages when using engines, I understand your pain. But, if you would learn the core language first, you wouldn't feel this way because you'd then see very clearly how the "side engine" is really just a bunch of functions someone made to save you time from coding your own functions.

    Lol, "archive" Idk how I said that rofl...


    But yea, I guess I'm gonna have to deal with the deciphering of side engines on my own time... I wish that wasn't the best option. I want some way to do it in a way where I can use custom functions made by someone else as easily as I can "if()" something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pazil View Post
    I hope you really didn't think that Flash and Real-time multiplayer game making was easy...
    I didn't think it would be anywhere near easy, but I can't find an answer anywhere or come up with one on how to make the server be able to handle a large amount of data sending at the same time and at a fast pace.

    Does anyone have even a clue about what you would need to do to solve my issue as far as that goes... Btw, I say that this speed issue is my main focus right now, above the side-engine and mic stuff.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Ray Beez's Avatar
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    Does the game work well without the "voice" transmission?
    Cuz really, even in PC games like Battlefield, people like to use Ventrillo instead of the in-game chat system.

  9. #9
    Hype over content... Squize's Avatar
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    Can you actually make a multi-player game using javascript ?

    If it's a wrapper between the swf ( via the html ) to a java / whatever backend, then isn't that a waste of resources ? Shouldn't the swf just hit the server based code directly.

    Also, is the javascript running all the game logic then ?

    Squize.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Beez View Post
    Does the game work well without the "voice" transmission?
    Cuz really, even in PC games like Battlefield, people like to use Ventrillo instead of the in-game chat system.
    The voice thing isn't the problem with what I'm trying to make, how to do the voice thing period is the problem as far as that part goes lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Squize View Post
    Can you actually make a multi-player game using javascript ?

    If it's a wrapper between the swf ( via the html ) to a java / whatever backend, then isn't that a waste of resources ? Shouldn't the swf just hit the server based code directly.

    Also, is the javascript running all the game logic then ?

    Squize.
    the game isn't made in javascript, the server is, check this out...

    http://giantflyingsaucer.com/blog/?p=224

    All I used it for is just sending data from one place to another, thats all..

    The rest of the additions (sign up, login, character creation selection, movement of viewable avatars to all users, chat, working on friends list and room list, sloped terrain for them to move on, and finally the swf database to store all user info on my computer) is all client side coding (NICE EH?)!

    All I use the javascripted server for is routing one string from one client to all other clients. My problem is the movement because I have to keep sending a 75+ charactered string to the server from every user on every loop of the frame.

  12. #12
    Hype over content... Squize's Avatar
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    That's a java based approach on that blog, not javascript.

    Also, for a multiplayer game, all the game logic is run on the server itself, rather than in the client.
    This allows you to sync up all the players and be able to run things at a good speed ( Amongst other things ).

    The swf is just used for display and user input, all the other things run server side.

    Squize.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squize View Post
    That's a java based approach on that blog, not javascript.

    Also, for a multiplayer game, all the game logic is run on the server itself, rather than in the client.
    This allows you to sync up all the players and be able to run things at a good speed ( Amongst other things ).

    The swf is just used for display and user input, all the other things run server side.

    Squize.
    Ok, but I don't want to rework my whole approach, after about 3500 lines of actionscript I don't want someone telling me to screw it all . Besides that I don't know to much java, never bothered looking at it really. I pretty much downloaded the project in the tutorial and made a few minor changes to it.

  14. #14
    Hype over content... Squize's Avatar
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    Rather than ditch what you've done, just make it a single player game.

    A multi-player game requires a totally different approach ( So time based movement rather than frame based, as a very easy example of the differences ), so chalk this down to learning and recover what you can from it.

    Also, it's one thing finding a nice open source example that deals with chat, if you're looking to make a MM action game, as I remember you saying in the past, then look at one of the commercial servers out there.

    Squize.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Squize View Post
    Rather than ditch what you've done, just make it a single player game.

    A multi-player game requires a totally different approach ( So time based movement rather than frame based, as a very easy example of the differences ), so chalk this down to learning and recover what you can from it.

    Also, it's one thing finding a nice open source example that deals with chat, if you're looking to make a MM action game, as I remember you saying in the past, then look at one of the commercial servers out there.

    Squize.
    I don't want to use something I didn't make so I don't wanna use commercial servers. And I don't think the problem is frame rate, I personally think it is the server itself getting overloaded with too much data handling at one time, along with the fact that your putting it at a fast rate. I don't think it is a client side slow down but a server side overload.

  16. #16
    Hype over content... Squize's Avatar
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    "I don't want to use something I didn't make so I don't wanna use commercial servers"

    To get things done you sometimes have to, such as using an open source chat app from a blog. You're using Flash rather than coding assembler in hex with notepad. It's all relative.

    "I don't think the problem is frame rate"

    I didn't say it was. The way you're approaching this is essentially flawed, and that's why it's never going to work well.

    "I don't think it is a client side slow down but a server side overload. "

    Yes, 'cause you're using a simple app. which is designed for chat, not designed to handle game logic.

    I know you're going to dismiss my advice, and in a couple of months post another thread saying nothing works.
    Do yourself a favour and check out the smartfox and electroserver docs, they have examples of how to do game logic on the server side, and why that's the way it should be done. Also there's the multiplayer thread in the knowledge base here.

    Squize.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squize View Post
    "[i]
    Yes, 'cause you're using a simple app. which is designed for chat, not designed to handle game logic.

    I know you're going to dismiss my advice, and in a couple of months post another thread saying nothing works.
    Do yourself a favour and check out the smartfox and electroserver docs, they have examples of how to do game logic on the server side, and why that's the way it should be done. Also there's the multiplayer thread in the knowledge base here.

    Squize.
    Firstly, is there anything I can do to make it so it can run game logic on my server? And secondly is that I have already tried smartfox and 2 reasons I don't like it, for one, once again side-engine coding, and 2, I don't have money to get past the 20 connection limit .

    Electro server must be kinda the same base requirements of money for unlimited connections and side-engine coding for the things you have to do.
    I want to do it in a way where it is pretty much as simple as the method I'm using of just sending and receiving and have no limits to the amount of connections I can have to the server...

  18. #18
    Funkalicious TOdorus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cody112 View Post
    I don't have money to get past the 20 connection limit
    Just bumping into the conversation bieng the total multiplayer n00b/wannabe that I am, but why should you have more then 20 connections pre-beta?

  19. #19
    Hype over content... Squize's Avatar
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    "once again side-engine coding, and 2, I don't have money to get past the 20 connection limit"

    Working with API's is fairly straight forward, and something you're going to have to learn if you want to use Away3D, Papervision, Box2D etc.
    All you're doing is importing classes and calling methods and getters / setters. It's no different to how you code with Flash anyway.
    As for the second point, get the game working first then worry about that.

    Maybe check out http://www.nonoba.com/ for a pre-made system with hosting.

    "I want to do it in a way where it is pretty much as simple as the method I'm using of just sending and receiving and have no limits to the amount of connections I can have to the server..."

    Yeah, I want lots of nice things too.
    Writing a MP game is difficult and time consuming, that's why there aren't many out there, it's not due to developers lack of ambition.

    Let's say you stick with your way, how does it handle latency for example ? What if one player has a low spec. PC and another has a top of the range one ? How do you plan to sync them up ?

    Commercial MP servers cost money for a reason, a hell of a lot of time and effort goes into both making them and stress testing them.

    Squize.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by TOdorus View Post
    Just bumping into the conversation bieng the total multiplayer n00b/wannabe that I am, but why should you have more then 20 connections pre-beta?
    Whoever said it was pre-beta? I plan on releasing this on newgrounds or something when I get over this speed problem and finish up a few small things.

    I practically have a whole online game here. All I would have to do is work on a battle system after I release this avatar based one. So it is pretty much complete not pre-beta.

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