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Thread: small rant

  1. #1
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    small rant

    Lately I've noticed a pretty disturbing trend around here. Somebody posts a job, I contact him, he likes my work and we wanna discuss it on let's say Skype. There he shows me the details and I give him a quote.
    Then:

    "OMG, are you joking? Do you know how much I got this site for?"

    I take a look at the site, it's very professional and nice with multiple sections and subsections, probably not very dynamic but still it's good work. Don't wanna talk about how much I'd charge for it but it would take me at least 3 but normally 4-5 working days to get it to the last detail and I work very fast, trust me.

    And do you know how much he got it for?... 300$
    So, if the guy working on it spent 4 (he probably spent a lot more) days... - 32 hours, that's 9.4$ per hour without taxes.

    And these are not people from India or China. These are american citizens working for this money. How, I don't know....

    So, if you have a paycheck of 60000$ per year (this is somewhat of a mid to lower level paycheck for a flash dev in US, but I'm not sure) and you calculate all the taxes and social and healthcare into it, you'd have to do around 400 websites per year to pay yourself 5000$ net each month.

    So, where's this world going to I don't know but I'm going away from this board and perhaps this work. It's a tourist season here in Croatia. Waiters make good money.

    Thank you for listening.
    Yours sincerely,

    Toltec7

  2. #2
    Senior Member realMakc's Avatar
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    get a dictionary, look up "template"
    who is this? a word of friendly advice: FFS stop using AS2

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by realMakc View Post
    get a dictionary, look up "template"
    it's custom design for sure

  4. #4
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    I was thinking this the other day, but it could also be someone who already has a full time job and does some freelance in their spare time - hence why they can do the job for peanuts....

  5. #5
    ....he's amazing!!! lesli_felix's Avatar
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    If he got it for $300 in the US, why doesn't he go back to the same developer?

    Why is he asking for a quote from someone in eastern europe?

    He's most probably lying and trying it on hoping to get a silly price from you.

    Just ignore people like this. If a four figure quote scares them off, you're better off not doing business with them.

  6. #6
    Moderator whispers's Avatar
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    this is NOT the place for this type of post.. (you guys know better)...

    are you posting here to advertise a project to hire out? or posting a resume/portfolio looking for work?

    moved to the chit-chat only coffee lounge..


    (sigh)

  7. #7
    anyone else hear that? flashpipe1's Avatar
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    (now that this is in the right place)

    It could also be a college student/recent graduate looking to expand their portfolio. Or a developer who had a site VERY similar to what they wanted that was easy to adapt.

    With so many WYSIWYG options, flash getting easier, more OOP and "componentized" it seems like there are more and more people out there who can crank out cookie cutter sites and are happy to work for peanuts.

    I've "lowballed" a few projects on here in the past either because I hit a slow period, was interested in the particular project or was doing a "favor" to another regular, but it's a bad precedent to set and can come back to bite you.

    I know my price, I estimate by hours and stick to that figure...if someone else comes in under that, good for them...my time is more valuable to me than $9/hr.
    Love like you've never been hurt, live like there's no tomorrow and dance like nobody's watching.

  8. #8
    ....he's amazing!!! lesli_felix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whispers View Post
    this is NOT the place for this type of post.. (you guys know better)...
    Sorry. I get rss feeds of my preferred forum posts, forgot to check which one this was posted to...

    Shouldn't this be in the boardroom anyway?

  9. #9
    Hood Rich FlashLackey's Avatar
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    Sounds like the premise of this rant assumes that this guy was telling the truth.

    Wish the person luck and move on.
    "We don't estimate speeches." - CBO Director Doug Elmendorf

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by flashpipe1 View Post
    It could also be a college student/recent graduate looking to expand their portfolio. Or a developer who had a site VERY similar to what they wanted that was easy to adapt.
    yeah that occurred to me but really professions that require no education in transitional countries make more money than that. and I've encountered 2 such cases in last 2 days, not just one, both times the employer and developer being from either US or western Europe. Simply ridiculous that such cases actually exist.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlashLackey View Post
    Sounds like the premise of this rant assumes that this guy was telling the truth.

    Wish the person luck and move on.
    I'm good at evaluating these things and he was.
    And I wished him good luck and moved on.

  12. #12
    OGC creativeinsomnia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by michaeltowse View Post
    it could also be someone who already has a full time job and does some freelance in their spare time - hence why they can do the job for peanuts....
    I do the exact opposite. I have a full time job, I also do freelance. Since I already work 40 hours a week, I value my free time. So when I do freelance, I make it worth it, or else I dont do it.

    I stay away from small clients because they usually have small budgets and are looking to get things on the cheap. If you can get some good connections, agency overflow work is a great way to make some freelance coin.

  13. #13
    supervillain gerbick's Avatar
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    I just had that happen to me... I just calmly asked for that person's contact info.

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  14. #14
    Hood Rich FlashLackey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toltec7 View Post
    I'm good at evaluating these things and he was.
    And I wished him good luck and moved on.
    What was the basis in your evaluation that led to your conclusion?
    "We don't estimate speeches." - CBO Director Doug Elmendorf

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlashLackey View Post
    What was the basis in your evaluation that led to your conclusion?
    hehehe, the same common sense that's telling me you're either trying to get a good laugh out of this or you're a philosophy sophomore. In case you're neither, I was offered a receipt for inspection. And if that was an isolated case I wouldn't make this thread.

  16. #16
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    I have had this happen to me and it was a student during summer holidays that did the site for pocket money. There is no way I could compete with his price but the guy was stumped as the student was back at university.

    Other than that I would say that he is lying to try to get you to lower your price.
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  17. #17
    Bearded (M|G)od MyFriendIsATaco's Avatar
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    It is real common for clients to try and say, "Hey, Joe next-door said he can do this for $100, why can't you?". Well, in that case, let Joe do it then.

    When it comes down to it, you have to be firm with your prices. If someone sees you bending, a good businessman can take full advantage of that and suck you in for less than you really want to do it for.

    That all comes back to confidence. If you're confident that your time is worth $xx/hr, then there is no question. If they say it's too high, so what? Move on.

    Now there's also a point where your price is too high. That's the point where you're cocky and will get very few clients. It takes a while to be able to evaluate your worth and stick with it. There are tons of factors involved: who are you working for? What is your current work load? Are you constantly busy, or constantly looking for work? Do you have an awesome portfolio? Are people talking about you and referring you around to all their friends? Are you struggling just to find anybody to do work for? Do you have steady work throughout the future? etc, etc, etc.

    The bottom line is not to argue with a client about a price. It's fine to negotiate a tad, but never low-ball yourself.

    $300 for a website that was custom made is flat out ridiculous. Even if your hourly rate were $20/hr, that's only 15 hours of work. Could you make the site in 15 hours? Start to finish.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyFriendIsATaco View Post
    It is real common for clients to try and say, "Hey, Joe next-door said he can do this for $100, why can't you?". Well, in that case, let Joe do it then.

    When it comes down to it, you have to be firm with your prices. If someone sees you bending, a good businessman can take full advantage of that and suck you in for less than you really want to do it for.

    That all comes back to confidence. If you're confident that your time is worth $xx/hr, then there is no question. If they say it's too high, so what? Move on.

    Now there's also a point where your price is too high. That's the point where you're cocky and will get very few clients. It takes a while to be able to evaluate your worth and stick with it. There are tons of factors involved: who are you working for? What is your current work load? Are you constantly busy, or constantly looking for work? Do you have an awesome portfolio? Are people talking about you and referring you around to all their friends? Are you struggling just to find anybody to do work for? Do you have steady work throughout the future? etc, etc, etc.

    The bottom line is not to argue with a client about a price. It's fine to negotiate a tad, but never low-ball yourself.

    $300 for a website that was custom made is flat out ridiculous. Even if your hourly rate were $20/hr, that's only 15 hours of work. Could you make the site in 15 hours? Start to finish.
    Of course all those variables come into play.
    I'll agree to lower prices in 2 cases only... One is if I find the project interesting or challenging (a situation where you can learn something new and get some money in the process) or of course if it's really slow lately. Of course friendly (very close friend) discount is an option too. Still, rates below 20$ per hour are rarely worth it.
    And yes, if you do it cheap for one guy and the word spreads around, you've screwed yourself. No philosophy there.
    I know my prices and my skillset and I surely won't be working for 10$ per hour. I'll rather find another job.

    15 hours for a custom made site (with dynamic components)? HELL NO!
    And yes, it's ridiculous, especially when you encounter it 2 days in a row.
    I show the guy a site (pretty complex one) I did for 8K (for a very close friend with a huge discount from my standard rates) and ask on how much he'd charge and I get "seems simple, not much I guess". I charge 8K in Croatia and he'd charge perhaps 1.5K in USA or Western Europe. Lame.

    Point is those people are young, in highschool or college and do not realize the worth of their work. Few hundred bucks is huge for them. They're however setting a very bad precedent and when they realize the worth of their work it's gonna be "Oh damn..." Hope they realize it sooner then later.

  19. #19
    Hood Rich FlashLackey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toltec7 View Post
    hehehe, the same common sense that's telling me you're either trying to get a good laugh out of this or you're a philosophy sophomore.
    I'm not sure who you think your sense is common to. But, you are off on both accounts. So, if you are relying on that, I further doubt your conclusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by toltec7 View Post
    In case you're neither, I was offered a receipt for inspection. And if that was an isolated case I wouldn't make this thread.
    I've been in this business for several years and have never seen a "receipt" issued for a custom web site. Are you referring to an invoice?

    Please post the receipt and we can help evaluate the situation to see if we arrive at the same conclusion.
    Last edited by FlashLackey; 06-17-2009 at 09:11 PM.
    "We don't estimate speeches." - CBO Director Doug Elmendorf

  20. #20
    supervillain gerbick's Avatar
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    lol. It's not that serious.

    He believed him, so be it. I go by my gut feeling in my daily operations a lot.

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