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Thread: Health Care reform

  1. #41
    I Mastered Dead Technology TallGuyLittleCar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlashLackey View Post
    Assuming that there is a correct medical solution and equal competency, you could have the option between different costs.
    And do you honestly think that is going to happen? Considering the requirements for equal competency? How often does a severe symptom have multiple accepted correct medical solutions?
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  2. #42
    Hood Rich FlashLackey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TallGuyLittleCar View Post
    And do you honestly think that is going to happen? Considering the requirements for equal competency? How often does a severe symptom have multiple accepted correct medical solutions?
    I don't follow what you are asking.

    I am saying that if all other things are equal, two options (two different doctors of equal competency, recommending the same procedure) could charge different prices. Are you saying that nobody doing the same thing charges different amounts?
    Last edited by FlashLackey; 06-29-2009 at 07:36 PM.
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  3. #43
    Chaos silverx2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TallGuyLittleCar View Post
    And do you honestly think that is going to happen? Considering the requirements for equal competency? How often does a severe symptom have multiple accepted correct medical solutions?
    All the ****ing time in the sports world.

    Its a constant battle between team doctors and players personal doctors.

    For instance Curt shilling last year. At the end of the 2007 season he signed a new contact with the red sox, shortly there after he felt some discomfort in his shoulder and got some tests done, He had some pretty severe damage in his rotator cuff, enough so that he could'nt pitch anymore. The team doctors said, no surgeory, just rehab it, and you will be good to go by the middle of the season, Curts doctor said, are you ****ing insane no, get the sugeory now, then rehab and you will be good to go if not this year then next year for sure.

    Curt opted for the team doctors, rehabed for most of the year then just about mid season hit an invisible wall, everything fell apart, the rehab was not helping enough and he got surgeory, he most likely will never pitch in the majors again.

    thats why we have the phrase second opinion.

    you have cancer and you have 97 days to live
    you have cancer but i think if we do these things and take this medicen you may live for years to come.
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  4. #44
    I Mastered Dead Technology TallGuyLittleCar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverx2 View Post
    All the ****ing time in the sports world.

    Its a constant battle between team doctors and players personal doctors.

    For instance Curt shilling last year. At the end of the 2007 season he signed a new contact with the red sox, shortly there after he felt some discomfort in his shoulder and got some tests done, He had some pretty severe damage in his rotator cuff, enough so that he could'nt pitch anymore. The team doctors said, no surgeory, just rehab it, and you will be good to go by the middle of the season, Curts doctor said, are you ****ing insane no, get the sugeory now, then rehab and you will be good to go if not this year then next year for sure.

    Curt opted for the team doctors, rehabed for most of the year then just about mid season hit an invisible wall, everything fell apart, the rehab was not helping enough and he got surgeory, he most likely will never pitch in the majors again.
    This example shows that between two options they were not equal. One was correct and one was incorrect. it was a choice over long term vs short term or price vs quality. If you are going to be selling a piece of legislation it will not be received well if you ask the population to make those sorts of choices concerning healthcare.

    The sports world is not a very good case study as they are in the business of pushing their bodies to the limit.

    thats why we have the phrase second opinion.

    you have cancer and you have 97 days to live
    you have cancer but i think if we do these things and take this medicen you may live for years to come.
    and if you went for option 1, died, and your family learned about option 2 would their be the possibility of a malpractice suit?
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  5. #45
    I Mastered Dead Technology TallGuyLittleCar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlashLackey View Post
    I don't follow what you are asking.

    I am saying that if all other things are equal, two options (two different doctors of equal competency, recommending the same procedure) could charge different prices. Are you saying that nobody doing the same thing charges different amounts?
    yes. In the same geological area two doctors of equal competency will charge the same for the same procedure. At least that has been my experience.
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  6. #46
    Chaos silverx2's Avatar
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    thats not how it worked on the first few seasons of everwood, but whatev.
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  7. #47
    I Mastered Dead Technology TallGuyLittleCar's Avatar
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    got eat a protein bar.
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  8. #48
    Hood Rich FlashLackey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TallGuyLittleCar View Post
    yes. In the same geological area two doctors of equal competency will charge the same for the same procedure. At least that has been my experience.
    However, if they are competing with each other, one could charge less than the other in order to get more business. No?
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  9. #49
    supervillain gerbick's Avatar
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    I've seen competition on smaller things... but not standard, bigger procedures.

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  10. #50
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    The only time I've seen real competition in doctor rates is for cosmetic surgery and lasik.
    I see/hear ads for those all the time on radio, TV, mailers, etc.
    Other types of doctors/surgery not so much.

    I can just see the commercials now...

    "Come on down to Doctor Bob's bargain surgery barn!
    This week's special, half-price angioplasty.
    2 for 1 kidney transplants, while supplies last!
    And remember, all Doctor Bob's organs come with a limited 90 day money back guarantee!"

  11. #51
    supervillain gerbick's Avatar
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    Dentists... I went to two of them that were closeby to my house, then one closer to the office.

    Insane price diff.

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  12. #52
    Hood Rich FlashLackey's Avatar
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    As everyone knows, our health care expenses are increasing faster than inflation. That means that there is room to lower costs just in the profit margin, without changing quality.

    If there was more competition involved in the equation, doctors would be under greater pressure to give a fair market price for procedures.
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  13. #53
    Flashkit historian Frets's Avatar
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    Hey FL got stats to back that up?


    Check this out-
    http://scienceblogs.com/denialism/20..._excess_co.php

  14. #54
    pablo cruisin' hanratty21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlashLackey View Post
    ...doctors would be under greater pressure to give a fair market price for procedures.
    I posted some links earlier in this thread which break down the cost(s) of healthcare. Docs are not the problem. If anyone is, blame lawyers, insurance, and large pharma.
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  15. #55
    Hood Rich FlashLackey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frets View Post
    Hey FL got stats to back that up?
    Google "rate of inflation" and "cost of health care in the US".

    Quote Originally Posted by hanratty21 View Post
    I posted some links earlier in this thread which break down the cost(s) of healthcare. Docs are not the problem. If anyone is, blame lawyers, insurance, and large pharma.
    Docs are not the problem. However, they are part of the problem (as the data from Fret's link supports in Exhibit 15). And I don't blame them as if they collectively are bad people, purposely exploiting the system. That would be more like characters such as John Edwards.

    You're correct that lawyers, insurance and so on are right in there. I was focusing on the example that TGLC had brought up just to make the point about how competition drives down prices in general. Raising the issue that consumers don't typically choose doctors based on price would have been beside that point.

    The root of the problem is the relationship between consumers and health insurance companies (not between consumers and doctors). If that problem were sorted out (via increased competition) the doctors prices would fall in line as well.
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  16. #56
    I Mastered Dead Technology TallGuyLittleCar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerbick View Post
    Dentists... I went to two of them that were closeby to my house, then one closer to the office.

    Insane price diff.
    I have encountered that to. But i have to wonder if there is relevant difference in quality of work. I have a $500 dollar crown turn into a $3000 bridge turn into $20000 implants. Not fun.
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  17. #57
    I Mastered Dead Technology TallGuyLittleCar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlashLackey View Post
    As everyone knows, our health care expenses are increasing faster than inflation. That means that there is room to lower costs just in the profit margin, without changing quality.
    It should also be noted that health care technology and science is increasing faster as well. What would have killed you a decade ago is now not such a big deal. That is partially why health care costs increase so much.
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  18. #58
    Spartan Mop Warrior Loyal Rogue's Avatar
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    If we really wanted to see competition and competitive rates wouldn't there have to be an increase in the number of doctors?
    Basic supply and demand?

    Isn't the prohibitive cost of higher education, especially medical, an overlooked factor in this whole debate?

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loyal Rogue View Post
    Isn't the prohibitive cost of higher education, especially medical, an overlooked factor in this whole debate?
    Not by me. I'm right there with you. All this talk of competition and docs lowering their prices, etc. completely discounts the concept that these guys and gals spend 10+ years in post high school education and amass 100's of thousands of dollars in debt in order to provide the service which most in this thread seem to want to pay next to nothing for.
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  20. #60
    Hood Rich FlashLackey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TallGuyLittleCar View Post
    It should also be noted that health care technology and science is increasing faster as well. What would have killed you a decade ago is now not such a big deal. That is partially why health care costs increase so much.
    Very true. Our health care should cost more relative to most of the world because of that. What we don't want is for costs to be forced so low that doctors and medical innovations go abroad. Still, I think that prices going up at more than double the rate of inflation per year is above and beyond the rate of increased technology costs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loyal Rogue View Post
    If we really wanted to see competition and competitive rates wouldn't there have to be an increase in the number of doctors?
    Basic supply and demand?
    I don't think so. That isn't where the bottleneck is. There is already competition between doctors.

    The area where there isn't enough competition is with insurance companies. They get away with inflating their rates for these reasons:

    A) Their customers (employers) get a huge tax break on that cost and thus are encouraged to maximize their employee compensation through larger health costs. It's a way for them to pay their employees 2 times on the dollar. The dirty secret is that tax-payers are essentially paying half of that via lost tax revenue from businesses.

    B) The individual consumers (employees) don't see the cost as something to scrutinize. Just the opposite, instead of wanting an affordable plan, employees tend to feel that they are getting better paid when their employers choose an expensive plan. They don't realize that they could be taking the inflated portion of the price home in their paycheck and get a health plan priced at market value with the same quality.

    C) Even if an employee connects the dots and is unhappy with their plan, they don't typically have the option to leave their employer plan to choose another; the key component of consumer decision needed for competition to move prices toward market levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loyal Rogue View Post
    Isn't the prohibitive cost of higher education, especially medical, an overlooked factor in this whole debate?
    I think it factors in with everything else. I just don't think it's as large of a component as other things because the terms to pay off student loans are pretty lax. A student typically has 30 years to pay off such loans at a government guaranteed low rate. So, the pressure from that cost should be relatively low.
    Last edited by FlashLackey; 07-01-2009 at 08:18 PM.
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