Health Care reform

[hanratty21]

Docs are not the problem. However, they are part of the problem (as the data from Fret's link supports in Exhibit 15).

According to Exhibit 15, it talks about Generalists making an average of $179,000 and Specialists making and average of $287,000.

Perhaps it's me, but that doesn't seem even remotely unreasonable.

[FlashLackey]

According to Exhibit 15, it talks about Generalists making an average of $179,000 and Specialists making and average of $287,000.

Perhaps it's me, but that doesn't seem even remotely unreasonable.

I think it's a little high for an average. According to that same chart, they are above what is "expected" by 40% and 60%.

I believe the fair market value is a little lower (maybe 10%-20% lower rather than 40%-60%). Though, again, I think that the bulk of the inflated costs come from insurance companies.

[hanratty21]

I think it's a little high for an average.

I don't understand...based on what? Are you saying that someone who spends 10+ years of post high school education and countless numbers of sleepless nights to prepare for a profession where they help people shouldn't get paid a few hundred thousand a year? If that's what you think, then fine, I'll back away from this thread, but I really don't think that is a whole lot of money in this day and age, given the amount of sacrifice that doctors have to go thru to get the MD at the end of their name.

[FlashLackey]

If sacrifice were the measure of how much people get paid, soldiers and police would be getting a lot more than doctors.

I don't think that you nor I should determine what any industry should average getting paid. The market should determine that. And I believe that the market would place those costs a little lower if not for extra-market influences into the equation.

[hanratty21]

I am pretty sure random would disagree with you had his dad lived beyond 45. I am pretty sure ANYONE who needs a doctor would disagree with you once a doctor adds more time to their life. Considering that a medium market weatherman probably makes about 200K per year, I think the doc's salary discussed above doesn't warrant this kind of scrutiny.

[TallGuyLittleCar]

Very true. Our health care should cost more relative to most of the world because of that. What we don't want is for costs to be forced so low that doctors and medical innovations go abroad. Still, I think that prices going up at more than double the rate of inflation per year is above and beyond the rate of increased technology costs.

well the only way to determine that would be to compare the 1970 cost of a procedure or medication available in 1970 to the cost of the same procedure or medication performed today.

[TallGuyLittleCar]

If sacrifice were the measure of how much people get paid, soldiers and police would be getting a lot more than doctors.

No disrespect to those that serve in our armed services, but you just barely have to complete high school to enlist. Not much of a sacrifice is needed at all to become a soldier.

[silverx2]

No disrespect to those that serve in our armed services, but you just barely have to complete high school to enlist. Not much of a sacrifice is needed at all to become a soldier.

yeah man, im with TGLC here, spending 2 years in a desert getting shot at, watching your fellow service men die after an IED explodes during thier rounds, and then getting home on leave and going to thier funeral and watching thier friends families cry as they bury them in a coffin with a flag draped over it. Pshh thats not sacrifice. You need to have your face in a book, and have late night study parties with pizza and diet soda in order for it to be a real sacrifice.

/sarcasm


Basically what i really want to say is that despite prefacing your post "no disrespect... " that was probably one of the most disrespectful things i have ever seen anyone say ever. You should be ashamed of yourself if you think someone that literally faces the potential of being shot or blown up at work every single day doesnt sacrifice because they didnt goto college then your out of your god damned ****ing mind. And it doesnt matter if you are against the war or not. The soldiers didnt say, hey Mr. Bush, were going to take some boats and planes and go invade that country. They were given orders, they packed there bags and they kissed their families good bye. Even trying to compare the "sacrifice" a person going to med school makes to the Real sacrifice a soldier makes is ridiculous and sickening.

[hanratty21]

Comparing a doctor to a soldier is like comparing a CEO to an assembly line worker. There's a reason that doctors who do enter the military come in as an officer (I believe they start at Captain.) No one is questioning the commitment or cojones (at least I'm not) it takes to enlist in the forces only to be thrown into a war torn region in the world, but we are really talking about apples and skyscrapers here. We're not even in the same neighborhood.

I believe TGLC was trying to compare the skillsets involved in the very loose comparison of doctors vs. enlisted folks. There truly is a VAST difference between the two.

I believe a better comparison would be the salary that a doctor deserves with that of another equally educated professional (lawyer, MBA-type.)

[silverx2]

and I believe Flashlackey was comparing the fact that at any given point on a day at work a soldier, or a police officer, or a fireman could be killed trying to do thier job.

Their work is inherently more dangerous, and comparing it to an assembly line worker is garbage on another level. Cant remember the last time i heard that a doctor was blown up by terrorists during a routine check up...

[TallGuyLittleCar]

yeah man, im with TGLC here, spending 2 years in a desert getting shot at, watching your fellow service men die after an IED explodes during thier rounds, and then getting home on leave and going to thier funeral and watching thier friends families cry as they bury them in a coffin with a flag draped over it. Pshh thats not sacrifice. You need to have your face in a book, and have late night study parties with pizza and diet soda in order for it to be a real sacrifice.

o.k... what about the other 90% of the military.

Basically what i really want to say is that despite prefacing your post "no disrespect... " that was probably one of the most disrespectful things i have ever seen anyone say ever.

I think it is far more disrepectfull to all the men and women that have died over the ages to advance freedom(mostly americans) that you have not taken the opportunity to learn to read and develop comprehension in this land of plenty.

I clearly said "to become" True the initial pay for an enlisted man is quite low. However as you advance in rank and specialization you get payed more. The re-enlistment bonuses for special forces are close to 6 figures.

And it doesnt matter if you are against the war or not. The soldiers didnt say, hey Mr. Bush, were going to take some boats and planes and go invade that country.

was there a draft?

[silverx2]

o.k... what about the other 90% of the military.

Oh im sorry, i wasnt aware that every one in the military had the choice to do whatever the **** they want, every single one of those soldiers in Iraq and afganhistan right now must have said, yeah man thats where i want to go.

I think it is far more disrepectfull to all the men and women that have died over the ages to advance freedom(mostly americans) that you have not taken the opportunity to learn to read and develop comprehension in this land of plenty.

I find it more disrespectul that you seem to think that some kid that can memorize fancy words out of a book makes more of a sacrifice then someone that defends this country.

I clearly said "to become" True the initial pay for an enlisted man is quite low. However as you advance in rank and specialization you get payed more. The re-enlistment bonuses for special forces are close to 6 figures.

That is the Sacrifice you jackass. You earn it, you go for years with the potential to be sent to ****ing war where people try and kill you with the hopes that someday when its all said and done you a.) survive, and b.)gain rank and pay.

Tell me how that is less of a sacrifice then some kid going to med school where he sleeps on a real bed and doesnt have to worry if hes going to survive the rest of the week.

was there a draft?

No, the people that serve this country and does its best to protect it are sacrificing thier lives for your freedom by choice.

[hanratty21]

...a soldier, or a police officer, or a fireman...

Most of which are not highly educated folks. I don't think there's too many PhD's or those with Masters degrees putting out fires or sitting in an Afghani bunker.

Your emotion laden posts are veering away from what I said. I was comparing the sacrifice of 25 years of education vs. what someone WITH that education should be paid. Not someone without that level of education.

If you must compare a doctor to a 'soldier' how about we compare to a West Point grad, not a front line enlisted person? Jeez man, put your red white and blue junk back in your pants. What's wrong? Tough day on the front line folding v-neck tees?

[silverx2]

So you are saying going to school is more of a sacrifice then joining the army and being sent to war..

[hanratty21]

So you are saying going to school is more of a sacrifice then joining the army and being sent to war..

So, you are not reading my posts?

[TallGuyLittleCar]

Jeez man, put your red white and blue junk back in your pants. What's wrong? Tough day on the front line folding v-neck tees?

nicely done.

[silverx2]

no i am reading them.

However you are trying to compare a soldier to a doctor.

At any level you need to measure them the same.

a soldier just in boot camp and a student first day at med school: who has sacrificed more?

A soldier that has just spent 4 years in back to back tours in iraq or a med student after 4 years in class? who has sacrificed more?

Stop trying to compare a doctor with 25 years of education with a just enlisted soldier, its biased. At any level with equal amounts of time commited a soldier will ALWAYS have sacrificed more then a medical professional. Always.

[TallGuyLittleCar]

No, the people that serve this country and does its best to protect it are sacrificing thier lives for your freedom by choice.

actually it is a bunch of "over payed book worms" from Los Alamos, NM that really protect my freedom. The military now largely serves to further the business interests of investment banks.

[hanratty21]

Stop trying to compare a doctor with 25 years of education with a just enlisted soldier, its biased. At any level with equal amounts of time commited a soldier will ALWAYS have sacrificed more then a medical professional. Always.

Listen champ, I am not comparing the two. I suggested comparing a doctor to a lawyer or another highly educated individual. Had you ACTUALLY read my posts as opposed to just writing that you had, you'd see that. Shall I go back and recap it for you, or can you actually use the scroll key or mouse wheel?

You are trying to compare an enlisted person to a doctor - not I. My only foray into that realm was when I suggested that you actually compare the two EQUALLY by using a West Point grad as a comparison. West Point's admission standards are pretty high, if I am not mistaken. The local enlisting office's standards -- well, not so high. Please compare things in a proper manner rather than just spouting off your patriot-laden rantings without any kind of intelligence to back up your thoughts.

a soldier just in boot camp and a student first day at med school: who has sacrificed more?

At that point, the med student. If you have just made it to boot camp, all you did was show that you can walk, breathe and sign your name.

[silverx2]

by signing your name you signed it away for a minimum of 2 years, a med student can drop out whenever they want with no further penalty.

A med student doesnt have to worry that they may be shipped to a war zone in 6-8 months, An enlisted soldier does.

I believe your assesment is wrong, a soldier will have sacrificed more.