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Thread: [Disc] Is it the Summer holidays here already ?

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  1. #1
    Hype over content... Squize's Avatar
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    [Disc] Is it the Summer holidays here already ?

    I really don't know if this is even worth posting, and I'm expecting a couple of flames, but isn't this board in a stagnant mess right now ?

    The most popular thread involves no one from here, and it's already had more views than the read me guide which is there to aid fellow developers ( And which to be frank is never even looked at any more )

    Has there been a thread about Mochi-coins yet ? Or GamerSafe ?

    Threads which are just flame bait are being posted to as an alternative to answering newbie questions which have been covered off dozens of times before.

    I know I shouldn't be a hypocrite, and if I want to chat about micro-transactions ( Which are far and away the biggest buzz in Flash right now ) then I should start the threads myself, but... I really don't know if I can be bothered any more.

    I come here multiple times a day, and I'm starting to finally realise that's just out of habit.
    I can't remember the last time I saw something really innovative here, this board used to be really cutting edge whilst being friendly to new members. It used to breed competition, someone would show something new and wow and everyone would be all over it, thinking how to push it further.

    ( I think the last thing was Render's mini 3D engine, which has had a bump and is back on the front page, and is over a year old now ).

    Now the same thread about nothing at all can stay on the front page for a week or more.

    I guess I've got some egotistical point to make, but it's really got lost somewhere, so I'm just bitc'hing to no one about something which can't be changed, and not even feeling any better for it.

    And that's it. My spleen has been vented.

    Squize.

  2. #2
    Custom User Title Incrue's Avatar
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    I gess the reasons are,
    1 flash is not friendly for newbies anymore
    2 no point in trying to reach the limits since the best it can do is not such a great thing
    3 ppl are busy with other things

  3. #3
    Senior Member
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    This board has been on a respirator for a long time. It started with countless demos and my flash 3d **** is big, look at it, then came unity nonsense, and so on. Hardly any completed games to show off for a long time.
    Last edited by tonypa; 06-25-2009 at 01:20 PM. Reason: word not suited for FK board

  4. #4
    Senior Member tonypa's Avatar
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    Everyone is busy learning iPhone SDK or Unity3D.

  5. #5
    Pencil Farmer cadin's Avatar
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    Agree.
    Not that I ever contributed anything terribly innovative myself, but...
    I stopped posting mostly because I started to dislike the overly negative tone of those who were most actively engaging in the discussions.
    I still lurk a bit, but like you said, there's not much to see these days.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Alluvian's Avatar
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    Do you guys think this is a general trend away from Flash (and toward what? Iphone? What does android use, Java?) or just that the few dozen or so really gifted posters here have had a busy 12 months?

  7. #7
    Style Through Simplicity alillm's Avatar
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    There has indeed been a noticeable drop in interesting posts recently. I can tell that by the fact that my lurking sessions have gone from 10 minutes going through a few topics, to just scanning the first 10 threads, realising they are pretty much the same as the last time I looked and moving on to my next site of interest.

    I realise I'm guilty of not posting as much as I once did, that's partly due to me finishing off a game at the moment but mainly because there isn't enough going on here to motivate me into getting involved.

    Ali

  8. #8
    Senior Member Pazil's Avatar
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    I have a few ideas, that...well...I've been planning to post about them after I get the concept ideas through, but the problem is just that, finishing them...

    Like Squize, I come to these forums every one in a while during the day, and then realize "Oh yeah, there was nothing interesting". As soon as a thread with an interesting title pops up, I immediately go to it, and check it out.

    I don't think that Flash isn't user friendly anymore...I think it's just that standards have slipped maybe? I remember that a couple years back, I posted in the Newbie's forum for all my questions like "How to move a movieclip with the array keys?" and that sort of stuff. A couple months back, checking that forum out, I see threads like "How to put sound on a frame?" or "How do I make a Movieclip?", in other words the questions that anyone competent enough could figure out a couple years back. The questions I used to ask in the Newbie's forums have slowly migrated to the AS2.0 forums.

    I think it has something to do with Flash getting more popular, and forums getting more popular. Most (I technically being one of them) new Flash developers / young Flash developers think as2/3 is a piece of cake, which it might seem compared to c++, but still has it's curve. "Hm, let's get in on this Flash stuff. I see all those awesome games and movies, why don't I make one?" then: "Woah, this is totally new to me. Instead of spending a couple days of playing around, I'll just ask stupid questions on forums and get answers more quickly.". I think that's when their perception of the Flash community turns to a group of angry, impatient people who don't want to help new comers.

    It sometimes pisses me off to see a crappy game on NG, and then the programmer writes "It's my first game", or "I'm only 15 guys!". F*ck that! If it's your first game, and it sucks (which it always will for everyone), then don't post it!!! If you're only 15...well, I don't know. Get a life. I notice most teens that are good at programming or school, are the ones to have a social life. Just so very few of them ever find out about programming. The typical nerds in school will look at the programming IDE for a couple days, copy a tutorial, tell people they do Flash programming...then go back to watching their favourite freakin' anime show.

    I'm full of rants, and I could write a book....some of it might not make sense, but I try to type as fast as I think and feel...

    P.
    WIP-ZOMBIES

    I love vegetarians! More meat for the rest of us!

  9. #9
    M.D. mr_malee's Avatar
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    yeah I can see this place going through its "yearly" change. I still visit occasionaly, been uber busy for the first half of this year, so maybe I'll get some time to experiment with stuff. In terms of flash, I haven't been thinking about anything other than work. I would love to get back into that giggling schoolgirl phase again, when I see a red ball bouncing of a bright blue line.

    Maybe we need more pro's around here or something.

    I am actually on holidays right now
    lather yourself up with soap - soap arcade

  10. #10
    Hype over content... Squize's Avatar
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    It doesn't even feel like the usual lulls we get here, it feels like a change in mindset.

    A lot of newer members seem to be very self focused, there's not the usual mucking in there used to be. I'm sure it's not a case of rose tinted glasses, but it used to feel like people would join, ask a couple of questions and then go on to help others as best they could. The board would recycle itself.

    Recently it's felt more like people join up, ask everything they want to know, and they're off again. This leads to longer standing members having to help out on threads where perhaps before newer coders would be able to ( And get the satisfaction of doing so, which leads to more posts from them ).

    Personally I struggle with some of the questions, as the example code is so far removed from how it should really be done, that explaining it all would be far more trouble than it's worth ( If you see a post about bullets and the codes on an enterFrame, who really wants to go down the route of saying it should be object based and you loop through each bullet via a class, and that's the way to be able update your tracking array ? So then you get the "Put all your code on one frame" replies, which are just a vague pointer rather than useful help. That's not to criticise those replies, as it is better than nothing )

    Maybe it is iPhone, Unity3D, freelance Flash work, real life etc.
    Maybe it's the as3 effect filtering through, in that the bar has been raised and the people who got it early on have moved on, leaving a vacuum in the board.
    Maybe it's the mochi effect, that everyone making a Flash game now is doing it for cash, which makes people that little bit more eager to finish what they're doing rather than take a sec. to help out ( And def not to show a beta or how to code a new effect )

    And maybe it's just me, I've been here too long and it's all become a little stale.

    Squize.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Alluvian's Avatar
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    I definately see the impatience. I posted a lot here, um... maybe a year or so ago when I was working on three games at once (2 I finished but never released due to lack of inspiration in level design, and my wife kept getting too busy to do final artwork, so they were too ugly for my standards or not animated. The third I tried to make the netcode AFTER the game which in hindsight is about the dumbest thing I ever tried to do).

    This time I came back with my mission to learn AS3, and do a new multiplayer game with the netcode FIRST. Actually, I am doing everything in the order the players will use it. All my menus, THEN the game.

    Things are going pretty well, (stuck on some gameplay mechanics that I want to iron out before I have to recode them, I keep waffling on how I want the dice to work) but the fuses on some of my answers have been a little on the short side.

    I don't mean to criticize, I fully understand WHY those fuses have shortened. I don't even know the exact question anymore, but I got the 'google that for you' response. I probably should have been more clear that I HAD googled it, and came up with a half dozen ways of doing it (none of which I was thrilled about) and wanted to see what some experienced game designers used. I figured your answers would be far superior to google.

    I think that is what some of the new people here are looking for as well. They can see that the stickies old. Even if the information is still good, there isn't a lot for AS3.

  12. #12
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    definitely been a decline. i've noticed that i tend to kill threads. as soon as i post, it dies. maybe i'm a bit too prickly.

    i posted a completed game that i was pretty proud of a couple months ago. it got a decent response from the 4 or 5 people that commented, but then disappeared. i'll be done another game in a week or so and will post it, but i expect the same, really. when it comes to completed games, i don't know how interested people here are in discourse, really.

    i used to spend a decent amount of my free time writing flash libraries and such, but recently i've been doing all iphone stuff, so i'm not here posting that as it doesn't fit. i have 2 libraries i'd really like to release, they're like 90% complete and super cool imo, but i don't have the drive or time to wrap them up. maybe i'll post them in their incomplete state.

    anyway, yes, totally feel that vibe here unfortunately. it's always been a place with a decent number of people whose work i respected and it would be sad to see it fizzle.

  13. #13
    Yes we can tomsamson's Avatar
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    Yeah, i get the same vibe and i think many of the possible reasons brought up are right.
    In my own case i mostly only do flash things when its about client work these days; in that case i often cant talk about the project while its in production and in some cases even cant publicly take credit once its out. In client work cases its also often deadline bound so not much time for experimenting lengthy or posting a lot about it.
    Then i work on unity3d and iPhone stuff, too next to dabbling with other tech and languages but im not into posting about those a lot anymore either cause it usually ends up in discussions whether this or that tech is better and why or why im posting it.

    In general i totally agree that the more commercialization of the flash games market and also the "evolution" of Actionscript, just as the uprising of blogs and other easy publishing technologies in the last few years has surely lead to people doing way different things and often with more commercial intent and those getting more experienced then often leave for doing commercial things or if they still post things for the community its then often on own blogs, twitter etc. rather than on a forum.
    At the same time the gap between an AS1 scripting newby and a flash platform pro becomes larger and larger, so yeah, no good combination for a forum that puts all in the same pot.

    In between i do miss the days when there was a strong community vibe and after a while one would know most members cause many were active regulars, it was more like mates hanging out together. It was especially nice in the earlier days of flash when there was that all working on pushing the frontiers and boundaries together feeling which i dont get a lot anymore these days, nowadays it feels more like many things can be done in this way or that way in flash and for other things there are other fitting technologies and languages, thats it.
    I feel like the vibe of the "good old days" is maybe more and more difficult to achieve in a world where more and more things are keeping people busy or distracted and there are more and more ways for each to broadcast and publish content himself rather than hang out in a community of many.

    Maybe it all sounds like a negative world view, it isnt entirely though
    It also has good sides to have more technologies, languages, distribution platforms to play with, more monetizing ways to earn a living, more outlets with good information and ways to get information out there oneself.
    Sure its said some of what was good in the past is lost thanks to some of the new things, but yeah, in between theres that one hread in a while where many oldies post something nice and when i see it it reminds me of the good old days and thats sweet
    Last edited by tomsamson; 06-27-2009 at 01:48 AM.

  14. #14
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    The major turn-off for me that makes me not post or even visit here so often is that too many new versions of Flash has come out, too many people only work with the latest ones while I don't. So I can't use their threads to get help from, I don't understand alot of the code posted here anymore, can't open the fla files.... I'm just satisfied with my as2 (flash mx pro 2004) and it's really sad people has moved on to other versions... and it's sad they differ so much from the one I'm using.

    Well, of course I understand why people use the latest flash version, as u can do more things now, and make em run faster even than before. But I'm only into simple things, 2D games and stuff.... not 3D...... but I still would like to learn new things, but like I said, it's hard when all posts nowadays are with code not working in my version.
    Last edited by Geneve; 06-28-2009 at 05:09 AM.

  15. #15
    Senior Member Sietjp's Avatar
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    My 2 cents. I feel the same of course.

    Actually I think this forum should stop being officially focused on Flash. We are a community of "Casual game developers and freelance people". Already, some of the most active topics are about Unity3D and iPhone. I spent half of my time on iphone dev right now so of course I spend less time on Flashkit forums.

    I still love to read the "new game" topics, especially when they come from people I know.

  16. #16
    Custom User Title Incrue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sietjp View Post
    Actually I think this forum should stop being officially focused on Flash. We are a community of "Casual game developers and freelance people". Already, some of the most active topics are about Unity3D and iPhone. I spent half of my time on iphone dev right now so of course I spend less time on Flashkit forums.
    Agree

  17. #17
    formerly hooligan2001 :) .hooligan's Avatar
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    Wow squize, I'm with you all the way. I think that every time I visit.

    FK just not the same anymore.
    World Arcade | Facebook | Twitter - Follow MEEEE! or not......

  18. #18
    Hype over content... Squize's Avatar
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    Some very good points posted here. Regards blogs, from a personal point of view we've moved over to our blog completely in regards talking about our own stuff, partly 'cause it bugs me when people treat this place like a blog and partly because we feel we have a lot more freedom there and with it being fairly niche we get much better feedback than we do here.

    I don't know about making the board more "Game dev in general", it's always nice to hear about iPhone games from members, or some Unity stuff, but the Flash indie scene is more than strong enough to support this board alone without trying to attract non-Flash coders here.

    newblack complete games have never done well here for some really weird reason. I've seen so many threads featuring lame alpha's that you know are never going to amount to anything get so much traffic.
    I think it may be 'cause people like to offer ( Impose ? ) their ideas, and on a complete game it's a bit too late.
    The percentage of complete games posted here is still as low as it's always been, and I'm not sure what that's about either.

    Geneve in regards supporting older versions of Flash, yeah I agree, not everything has to be bleeding edge as3 dev.
    In saying that though, there are so many people still coding in as1, badly, that it's untrue.
    People still using onEnterFrame on clips directly. I don't know if 'cause there's a lot of old tutorials out there, or just because it's easier / lazier.
    I actually had a check just out of curiosity 'cause I really couldn't remember and as2 came out with Flash MX 2004 ( Actually 2003 ). The language has been out there for 6 years, and people are still posting crap in as1
    [ I've never referred to as1 as crap before, I don't like any sort of snobbery when it comes to coding, but I think it's valid thing to say now, 6 years later. Whatever any ones views on OOP in Flash are, I think it's fair to say it's not exactly the future anymore, it's here to stay, and if done well it does make coding a lot easier ]

    Perhaps it's own fault, perhaps some of the more experienced devs here should be posting up frame works and beginner guides to as2/3. But you know what, I don't think that'll make any difference at all.
    I guess it all goes back to money. If you're happy making crap games just to get your $50, then you're not going to bother trying to do more. as1 is just fine.

    Squize.

  19. #19
    Senior Member Pazil's Avatar
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    I really don't see the point in staying with AS2.0, now that you can start coding in AS3.0 for free (that's what I did, and I've never been happier). And I mean, I'm one of those making the games (hopefully not crap ) to get my 50$, or more for that case, but I'm definitely not in the business of Flash games to get by every day.

    Just like Squize (again), I don't understand why some people don't embrace OOP, whether it's in as2.0 or as3.0. Even for simple games, OOP really does help...

    I always like seeing prototypes and new concepts or algorithms of doing stuff, either faster, cooler, or just in a different way. I actually think that the Games forum was meant to showcase that stuff, but it has slowly turned into another Help forum, for stuff maybe a tiny bit related to games.

    The funny thing I see though is that so many of us, the ones that everyone knows (not too sure about myself), are all posting in this thread complaining, and yet we don't post much...except for Cadin about MochiCoins.

    I really gotta finish up the project I'm working on, so I can post something to help this forum finally...

    P.
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    I love vegetarians! More meat for the rest of us!

  20. #20
    Hype over content... Squize's Avatar
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    I can see why people stick with as2, I'm doing a large project in as2 atm, it's far from dead, but yeah there seems to be a lack of oop as2.

    "and yet we don't post much"

    I think I've done my fair share But for me it's the reasons I've already outlined, I'd rather post to the blog ( For example the entire development of X++ is posted on there, build by build. That's not something I'd bother with here ), and the last person I actually tried to help here, who obviously didn't have a clue and just wanted to copy/paste, couldn't even manage a thank you, he just came back with another question ( That, and sms speak bug the hell out of me. It's spelt please, not pls ).

    That to me feels like the general vibe here now. I know it's a generalisation, but perception counts for a lot.

    Squize.

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