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Thread: HTML5 and Flash

  1. #1
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    HTML5 and Flash

    I've read little about HTML 5 that it can play vid without plugin and such.

    What are your thoughts about the advancements of HTML against the future of Flash?

    I mean, Flash in the old days was the thing you need to do animated menu bar, vid player, along with some other flashy stuffs. Now that HTML itself can do those things to some extend. Will u see the decline in users of Flash in the future? Will Flash come up with something that will enhance the web even further again?

  2. #2
    supervillain gerbick's Avatar
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    heh... was just tweeting about this yesterday. the <video> and <audio> tag is basically dead in the water right now due to codec/encoding squabbles of h.264, thus Apple Quicktime versus Ogg Theora. Opera and FF support Ogg Theora, Safari supports h.264... Microsoft is being quiet.

    Read more here...

    Personally, I'd love to have that option... but as PAlexC points out, with a better implementation of controls. As it stands, it's rather (dare I say) hokey and badly implemented at the very moment... much like Silverlight and WMV.

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  3. #3
    OGC creativeinsomnia's Avatar
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    HTML 5 will be pretty neato in 10 years when all browsers support it.

  4. #4
    Bearded (M|G)od MyFriendIsATaco's Avatar
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    If all goes well, and when it's actually acceptable to be used, Javascript engines will be fast enough to do any kind of animation necessary, so I'm voting for Flash to become obsolete in the web world and it migrates over to purely some games and actual cartoon animations.

    Even now, I personally strive to do as little in Flash as possible. If it's a little bit harder to do it in Javascript, as long as it performs well (and it usually does), I'll take the slightly longer route to not require the user to need Flash or watch their CPU sitting at 100% for an image slideshow.

  5. #5
    Retired SCORM Guru PAlexC's Avatar
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    Gerbs bore the brunt of my ramblings last night.

    1.) Go build a customized video player in flash: design, controls, throw in some additional features like playlists, etc.

    2.) Go look at how video is implemented on Mozilla's site, specifically mozilla-video-tools.js and video-player.css. Then factor in inconsistencies between browsers in implementing HTML5.

    Tell me which you'd rather deal with as a programmer.

    Also, cameras, cell phones, and tons of utilities have standardized on H.264 b/c of YouTube and Apple. Consumer devices use it because it's instantly sharable. Theora means people will have to convert JUST for the web, and quality wise it sucks compare to H.264.
    Last edited by PAlexC; 07-03-2009 at 05:30 PM.
    "What really bugs me is that my mom had the audacity to call Flash Kit a bunch of 'inept jack-asses'." - sk8Krog
    ...and now I have tape all over my face.

  6. #6
    Hood Rich FlashLackey's Avatar
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    I was just laughing with someone the other day over how many "flash killers" there have been over the last several years.

    I think the trend is moving in the opposite direction. HTML is a markup language. Associated implementations of logic are unwieldy and bizarre when compared to traditional programming conventions.
    "We don't estimate speeches." - CBO Director Doug Elmendorf

  7. #7
    Total Universe Mod jAQUAN's Avatar
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    I'll be stoked to use multiple scaling backgrounds with rounded corners via CSS3.... as CI said, in 10 years.
    HTML5/CSS3 is like learning of a scientific breakthrough. Bitter sweet in knowing that It will still be a hell of a long time before it benefits you.
    Not sure how I feel about the <canvas> tag. Doesn't look very seo friendly but that could change with a good canvasobject.js

    @taco, I'm really leaning that way dude. The handful of tricks that are considered clean use of motion graphics can pretty much be javascripted anymore. Few performance hurdles to overcome but tons of potential.
    Last edited by jAQUAN; 07-07-2009 at 10:45 AM.

  8. #8
    Total Universe Mod jAQUAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlashLackey View Post
    HTML is a markup language. Associated implementations of logic are unwieldy and bizarre when compared to traditional programming conventions.
    Heh, some would say the same about MXML

  9. #9
    supervillain gerbick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jAQUAN View Post
    Heh, some would say the same about MXML
    Don't you dare call MXML a markup language... the first M in MXML stands for aMazing.... dammit!

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  10. #10
    Retired SCORM Guru PAlexC's Avatar
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    *RANT*

    The FOSS community (herein 'FOSS') believes that web standards should be able to do everything Flash does, that nothing should be locked up in anything proprietary.

    Flash came about to provide a capability that browsers didn't have. The problem, was that it was successful. FOSS didn't like that. Not. One. Bit. Why should Adobe hold the keys?

    Well, we do have an alternative: Java. The problem with Java as a runtime inside the browser, is it sucks. Java FX is a joke.

    The real issue, is that the private sector was able to innovate, and grow a technology, that FOSS didn't have an answer for. It was an ideological defeat for them.

    But proprietary technology has no place in the 'real' web, no matter how practical. There MUST be a FOSS alternative TO. EVERYTHING., just in case one day, Adobe decides to change the copyright. Because, it would make total sense for their business to do that.

    The fact of the matter is you're never going to get an open standard that can effectively compete with Flash. It's too well entrenched, and it has years and years of development and refinement sunk into it, guided by really good product managers.

    Go build your web-multimedia project using XML, SVG and OGG. I'll wait.

    But as much as HTML, the browser, and they way we use the web has changed...that kind of case is well out of scope for HTML. It SHOULDN'T be trying to do that stuff. Sure, Flash has influenced the way we use the web. But FOSS just can't give credit to Adobe, and say 'well done', because they're a private enterprise.

    They simply cannot envision a world where standards and proprietary technology can find an effective, practical middle ground. (Which, is essentially what we have now.) They're ideologues as bad as Palin supporters.

    HTML 5 is abandoning the semantic web, in an effort to make HTML compete with a technology it shouldn't be bothered competing against. The more I read about it, the more I dislike. Extensibility? Gone. Only to be used (eventually) in XHTML 5, if it ever gets done and only dished up as application/xhtml+xml.

    It's going to be HTML4, with a few new tags, all over again. And that's a goddamn shame.
    "What really bugs me is that my mom had the audacity to call Flash Kit a bunch of 'inept jack-asses'." - sk8Krog
    ...and now I have tape all over my face.

  11. #11
    Hood Rich FlashLackey's Avatar
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    Quite a good rant. I've been battling those nuts for years when they've showed up to sabotage a project.

    Quote Originally Posted by jAQUAN View Post
    Heh, some would say the same about MXML
    Indeed. I believe that one of the main reasons that was commercialized was to attract and make use of mark-up experienced programmers.

    Working with MXML only is quite a bit different than developing unique logic in flash, imo.
    "We don't estimate speeches." - CBO Director Doug Elmendorf

  12. #12
    Bearded (M|G)od MyFriendIsATaco's Avatar
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    How in God's name is HTML 5 trying to abandon the semantic web? It's trying to enhance it by bringing in some of the non-semantic aspects of Flash, and making them into more semantic representations in HTML alone.

  13. #13
    Retired SCORM Guru PAlexC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlashLackey View Post
    Indeed. I believe that one of the main reasons that was commercialized was to attract and make use of mark-up experienced programmers.

    Working with MXML only is quite a bit different than developing unique logic in flash, imo.
    Eh, MXML isn't really "markup" language. You're still just delivering instructions to a compiler, you're not validating for compliance issues, or using it to describe content, it's just an alternative method for getting those instructions TO the compiler.
    "What really bugs me is that my mom had the audacity to call Flash Kit a bunch of 'inept jack-asses'." - sk8Krog
    ...and now I have tape all over my face.

  14. #14
    Retired SCORM Guru PAlexC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyFriendIsATaco View Post
    How in God's name is HTML 5 trying to abandon the semantic web? It's trying to enhance it by bringing in some of the non-semantic aspects of Flash, and making them into more semantic representations in HTML alone.
    Because they're shafting extensiblity. HTML 5 is really all about: "Hey, what's popular today? We should jam it into the language as an update. Video? Great, that's popular, let's do it!"

    Whereas in XHTML you can use a custom namespace, that references a DTD to provide the vocabulary for it. (MathML and Spry pages/elements can then be identified and described as such.)

    XHTML 5, is supposed to address that, but they're saying it shouldn't be delivered to browsers, only to applications.

    XHTML 2 was supposed to just have some of the new elements of HTML 5, with the extensible format, and be delivered to browsers.

    I have no problem with a video tag (provided they can implement it right), or trying to clean up the shortcomings of object/embed, but the way they're going about it is wrong.
    "What really bugs me is that my mom had the audacity to call Flash Kit a bunch of 'inept jack-asses'." - sk8Krog
    ...and now I have tape all over my face.

  15. #15
    No I can't do it by tommorow.. 1stbite's Avatar
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    Last edited by 1stbite; 07-08-2009 at 06:18 PM.
    and in a blink of an eye...
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    Give a Twit a chance!

  16. #16
    Hood Rich FlashLackey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PAlexC View Post
    Eh, MXML isn't really "markup" language. You're still just delivering instructions to a compiler, you're not validating for compliance issues, or using it to describe content, it's just an alternative method for getting those instructions TO the compiler.
    The process of using MXML is somewhat different than HTML. But, MXML is still a markup language. Actionscript is used within MXML and is not a markup language. Similar to how Javascript is used within HTML and is not a markup language.

    MXML, an XML-based markup language, offers a way to build and lay out graphic user interfaces. Interactivity is achieved through the use of ActionScript, the core language of Flash Player that is based on the ECMAScript standard.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_Flex
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  17. #17
    Retired SCORM Guru PAlexC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlashLackey View Post
    The process of using MXML is somewhat different than HTML. But, MXML is still a markup language. Actionscript is used within MXML and is not a markup language. Similar to how Javascript is used within HTML and is not a markup language.
    Right, I guess I meant more by the way it's used. While Flex is 'open', validation for indexing and accessibility isn't an issue. It's not being distributed to be interpreted by a dozen or so major environments, it's only getting fed to the Flex compiler, or an open-source one if someone ever bothers to make one.

    It's less important for Flex, I meant.
    "What really bugs me is that my mom had the audacity to call Flash Kit a bunch of 'inept jack-asses'." - sk8Krog
    ...and now I have tape all over my face.

  18. #18
    Hood Rich FlashLackey's Avatar
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    Agreed. It really illustrates the fundamental flaw of the current HTML model. HTML has an absolute dependency on an unpredictable renderer. Loose dependencies are one of the oldest and most basic no-nos of software engineering in general.

    HTML would be far more efficient to use if it were also plug-in based.
    Last edited by FlashLackey; 07-08-2009 at 07:19 PM.
    "We don't estimate speeches." - CBO Director Doug Elmendorf

  19. #19
    He has risen! lefteyewilly's Avatar
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    I made a unicorn with donuts on its horns with CSS and HTML5. I'm awesome.

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    Official Vermont Photo Mod WannaBe_80z's Avatar
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