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Thread: RumbleSushi 3D game demos

  1. #21
    Pumpkin Carving 2008 ImprisonedPride's Avatar
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    Runs perfect here. 2.4GHZ Firefox 3.5 3MB DDR RAM.

    Have to agree with trogdor though: The walls seem to be "waving" while I move, similar to what happened in the Matrix.

    Other than that... nice work I guess.
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  2. #22
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    ImprisonedPride - yep, that's a by product of dynamic triangulation, which is a homegrown method of correcting the texture distortion caused by affine texture mapping. In a nutshell.

    I posted a Flash 10 version using a different rendering technique. It's pixel perfect but uses more juice.

    http://rumblesushi.com/city_F10.html

  3. #23
    Senior Member Pazil's Avatar
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    The fish were beautiful! That reminded me of an old idea to make a 3d fish game, so...when do you expect to be finished the engine? (Sorry for being pushy... )

    I like making a 3d engine in Flash a) it forces you to really work with optimization, and be creative in implementing certain stuff. I like to see good 3d games in Flash, and with this engine I can see some finally come! It's like rumblesushi said, it forces you to be creative also with what you design in the game and level planning!

    Great engine! And post immediately as soon as it becomes available!

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  4. #24
    Yes we can tomsamson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rumblesushi View Post
    Thanks Pazil

    I'm actually using the graphics class to draw the polygons, bitmapFill.

    Good to see you get a somewhat acceptable framerate on such an old machine too.

    Tom - the reason for choosing to develop my own engine rather than using Away 3D or Papervision is quite simple. Partly for the challenge, but mainly because they are too slow to make proper 3D games. With any fairly complex scene with a lot of models, there's no way you're going to get 60fps out of Away3D or PV3D.

    Obviously they are far more feature rich than my engine, but most of the features are more geared towards website stuff rather than games.

    My engine has been built for speed, rather than usability or versatility, and the features are far more game focused - I'm focusing on LODing, mip mapping, enemy movement, collision detection etc.

    Also, what better way of getting a thorough understanding of 3D mechanics than building your own engine? Building my engine and knowing how it works inside out, automatically puts me at a big advantage when developing 3D work, as I know exactly how everything is working, and can easily modify/customise things as I see fit.

    The difference in speed alone is worth it, the other Flash 3D engines aren't fast enough to render a proper 3D scene with a lot of objects, movement, collision detection etc at an acceptable framerate.

    As for your second question - penetration. From a business standpoint, 3D games in Flash make more sense, and there is a gap in the market for them. Despite technology like Unity being out there, people are going to be excited about playing an N64 or DS level game in Flash.

    And I guess what it boils down to is 99% of users have Flash 9, and even Flash 10 is up to around 90% now.

    Do you know the stats for Unity?

    And I guess, being that these are browser based games we're talking about, I'm going to create some fast, fun, arcade style games. With a big pick up and play appeal, and score attack appeal etc.

    I'm not aiming to make games that compete with console games. And in regards to the huge horsepower difference between my 3D engine and Unity (as Unity uses the GPU obviously, the difference in poly pushing power is enormous) - the DS Vs the PSP perfectly illustrates that horsepower only counts for so much.

    The DS is more accessible, has a lot of fun games, makes the most of it's low polygon budget, and has very playable games at high framerates (most DS games run at 60fps, even Mario Kart DS).

    So for the kind of fast, stylistic arcade style games I'll be making, I don't even really need the polygon budget of Unity.

    With such a small Polygon budget too, it'll force me to be far more creative in regards to art style etc, coming up with interesting designs and textures that suit such a low polygon environment.

    Don't get me wrong though, I find Unity 3D hugely impressive. Although I've known about it for ages, I only had a proper look recently, and I was blown away. I had a look at the Tropical Paradise demo.

    I was expecting Shockwave level 3D visuals (which are impressive in their own right, as it is also hardware accelerated) - but the Unity visuals were more approaching PS2 level graphics. Very impressive.

    Apart from the low penetration, one of the things that puts me off is, am I right in thinking it uses a scripting language, with no use of classes etc? I heard someone mention it.

    Regardless, I shall give Unity a go once this project is properly up and running

    Cheers,
    RumbleSushi
    Ok, i see regarding why you do your own one and go for using flash =)
    I think your points are understandable for web deploy.
    I started using flash back when the plugin was pretty new and not widespread at all yet, so yeah, i have no worries to use something on the web that hasn´t the most widespread plugin yet, especially for games where the audience and clients are more likely to adopt new tech faster when they see advantages in it.

    Regarding unity plugin penetration here´s an interesting thread on that: http://forum.unity3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=41880

    For me the deciding factors for using things like unity3d and other solutions more for the higher end or other deploy options than web playback stuff were mostly two things:
    -Loosing the belief in Macromedia/ Adobe doing the changes and additions i think are required in any reasonable timeframe or at all
    -The change in how i see myself regarding what i do: A few years back i´d see myself more in the hardcore core engine developer field. Sure, i wouldn´t code Assembler or similar low level stuff, but i´d find joy in spending lots of time in writing own physics engine setups or tweaking the performance side of game engines all day to squeeze out most of flash.
    Nowadays i see myself more as game developer and game designer and that´s what i´d like to focus more on than a core engine coder.
    I want to spend more time on making things fun than on making things run at all and also more on game logic and interaction than keeping the framerate up even for 2d stuff
    So yeah, meanwhile for me the solutions that deliver the core functionalities out of the box and allow me to actually focus on making the content are meanwhile more interesting.

    Also to me personally since i also want to deploy to desktops and other devices, too its more important that i can use something that leads to good compeitive results on all platforms and deploy ways, but yeah, to each his own =)


    Regarding the unity island demo: Yeah, i agree, i was similarly blown away when i saw it the first time and yeah, well, its probably sorta more in ps2 level besides the anti aliasing and some shaders not possible on the ps2.
    Regarding unity in general its also used for current gen console games, one can do a lot more than what would fly on the ps2 =)

    Regarding unity only supporting scripting lamguages: That´s not right, i guess that misinformation is maybe founded on the point that one creates seperate files for the code and those are often referred to as script files.
    But the actual content of those files, so the code can be done in Boo (only in web version) , Javascript and C#.
    In Javascript one can use classes but doesn´t have to whereas C# is totally class based.
    Last edited by tomsamson; 01-21-2010 at 06:12 PM.

  5. #25
    Yes we can tomsamson's Avatar
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    really nice demos you added meanwhile btw =)

  6. #26
    5+5=55 Schfifty Five's Avatar
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    60+ FPS in all demos, very nice.

    (Core i7 920, Win 7 Pro, Chrome 3.0)

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomsamson View Post
    Ok, i see regarding why you do your own one and go for using flash =)
    I think your points are understandable for web deploy.
    I started using flash back when the plugin was pretty new and not widespread at all yet, so yeah, i have no worries to use something on the web that hasn´t the most widespread plugin yet, especially for games where the audience and clients are more likely to adopt new tech faster when they see advantages in it.

    Regarding unity plugin penetration here´s an interesting thread on that: http://forum.unity3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=41880

    For me the deciding factors for using things like unity3d and other solutions more for the higher end or other deploy options than web playback stuff were mostly two things:
    -Loosing the belief in Macromedia/ Adobe doing the changes and additions i think are required in any reasonable timeframe or at all
    -The change in how i see myself regarding what i do: A few years back i´d see myself more in the hardcore core engine developer field. Sure, i wouldn´t code Assembler or similar low level stuff, but i´d find joy in spending lots of time in writing own physics engine setups or tweaking the performance side of game engines all day to squeeze out most of flash.
    Nowadays i see myself more as game developer and game designer and that´s what i´d like to focus more on than a core engine coder.
    I want to spend more time on making things fun than on making things run at all and also more on game logic and interaction than keeping the framerate up even for 2d stuff
    So yeah, meanwhile for me the solutions that deliver the core functionalities out of the box and allow me to actually focus on making the content are meanwhile more interesting.

    Also to me personally since i also want to deploy to desktops and other devices, too its more important that i can use something that leads to good compeitive results on all platforms and deploy ways, but yeah, to each his own =)


    Regarding the unity island demo: Yeah, i agree, i was similarly blown away when i saw it the first time and yeah, well, its probably sorta more in ps2 level besides the anti aliasing and some shaders not possible on the ps2.
    Regarding unity in general its also used for current gen console games, one can do a lot more than what would fly on the ps2 =)

    Regarding unity only supporting scripting lamguages: That´s not right, i guess that misinformation is maybe founded on the point that one creates seperate files for the code and those are often referred to as script files.
    But the actual content of those files, so the code can be done in Boo (only in web version) , Javascript and C#.
    In Javascript one can use classes but doesn´t have to whereas C# is totally class based.
    Hey Tom, thanks for the compliment. Even though technically my latest demo is the best showcase, I still like those flock demos, and the underwater scene. The first two were from november, the second two from december. The latest demo was completed a couple of weeks ago.

    Your reasoning is completely understandable too.

    I must admit, I really do enjoy building this engine, and pushing AS3 for all it's worth. It's fun to me.

    But at the same time, I've built a 3D engine that is perfectly catered to my needs, so when it's finished, I can then focus 100% on game development and design, just like you said. Which then wouldn't be that different from you using Unity, the difference is you obviously have to put in a LOT of hours to build your own engine rather than learn to use an out of the box package. So for most people, an out of the box package is a far more attractive option.

    I guess for me though, this was actually necessary. It's fun, and challenging, but like I said, the main driving factor was that the out of the box 3D packages in Flash are too slow, so I had no choice but to make my own.

    It's true what you say, gamers are far more likely to think nothing of installing a plug-in that takes like 30 seconds to install, compared to most people. However a large portion of the market are casual gamers, and I think it's more proper gamers that fall into the category you speak of.

    I guess what it comes down to, is a good game published in Flash online, is going to be played by far, far more people than a good game in Unity online, right now.

    That's not to say I plan on making ****, casual games. I'm going to make fun, accessible games that should appeal to both the hardcore and masses alike.

    Thanks for the info regarding programming in Unity. That's good to know. I was under the wrong impression, because I did actually see someone complaining about programming in Unity, as if it was completely procedural and limited, like the Flash 5 revision of AS1

    To be honest I've been restraining myself from trying Unity since I saw that Island demo. I'm 100% focused on this project now though, and I need to work on something everyday, or I lose my flow.

    I was also quite excited to hear there is a free version now. The only problem is, the free version is lacking 2 features I consider essential, the low level access and profiler.

    Just a couple more questions regarding Unity. Just how out of the box is it? I recall it uses PhysX right? So does it have physics/collision detection/cameras/model importers etc right out of the box? Is it that easy to get started?

    And does the native physics engine/collision detection seem to run pretty fast?

  8. #28
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    Hey guys, just so we don't lose focus on rumblesushi's engine, I've forked the interesting discussion about competing 3D engines here:

    http://board.flashkit.com/board/newt...=newthread&f=5

    [edited by tomsamson] and i moved the posts in question =) [/edit]
    Last edited by tomsamson; 01-22-2010 at 06:11 PM.

  9. #29
    Custom User Title Incrue's Avatar
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    rumblesushi, what format are you using to import things?Collada?

  10. #30
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    Incrue - right now, just OBJs. They are the easiest models to parse.

    They are not that good though, I thought they would be lighter in filesize than colladas, but they aren't.

    Before making games, importing Colladas or 3DS files with animation is near the top of the to do list.

    I'll have a new demo to post soon. Proper 3D per polygon collision detection is a bit tricker than I thought. I need to get it working accurately with minimal impact on performance.

    I'm also working on getting the Flash 10 rendering running faster.

  11. #31
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    Are you planning on implementing a scene graph, skeleton animation, and/or bsp or quad mapping to this engine?... then make it open source and I'll kiss ya add normal light mapping and pixel bender effects and i'll do more! lol

    RipX

  12. #32
    Senior Member Pazil's Avatar
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    I once tried to get PixelBender filters to work...but I never did. PixelBender seems like a completely different planet to me from a Flash perspective. It would be cool to see how people got it to work, especially if you could implement it with a 3d engine!

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  13. #33
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    @Pazil Some flash 3d engines already use PixelBender to allow for shader effects on the GPU.

  14. #34
    Senior Member Pazil's Avatar
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    Really?! That's awesome!
    Which ones?
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  15. #35
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    I know that away3d has them for sure, but probably papervision & sandy also. Not sure about alternativa. Here is a few pixel bender implementaion examples: http://away3d.com/away3d-3-4-2-pixelbender-to-the-max

    RipX

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    I'm not planning on implementing pixel bender filters or any dynamic lighting effects at all actually, unless I can come up with something that runs very, very fast.

    As impressive as some of the pixel bender shaders/lighting effects are, implementing them in a 3D flash game would be insanity. You'd cut an already tiny polygon budget in half at best.

    They make for interesting experiments etc, but they are only really suited to something very simple with just 1 model, like the examples above. It wouldn't be realistic to apply lighting effects/shaders to a 3D game in Flash.

  17. #37
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    Oh and in regards to animation/BSP etc.

    Importing animation in 3D models is essential obviously. I'll use either colladas or 3DS files.

    As for BSP, probably a bit unnecessary. I'm working on a grid or quad tree for collision detection. For levels that are as tall as they are long/wide, I'd probably have to make an octree.

    And about lighting, I think for the most part baked textures look fine, as long as the graphic artist does a good job.

  18. #38
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    @rumblesushi - I agree on the points about pb filters for the most part, I think a serious look at BSPs might see a speed improvement for large models/areas and I think you should seriously look at it to allow your faces to be divided, this prevents the overlapping of faces that can create graphical glitches, would help with face culling etc and lod stuff might be good to look at if you want to get even more speed!

    It would be nice to see where this goes! Keep it up!

    RipX

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    Yep, that's what Alternativa mostly use the BSP tree for, as far as I know, very accurate z sorting, splitting/clipping polygons to other polygons, just like frustum clipping really, but with other polys.

    However, this would undoubtedly be significantly slower than the good old painter's algorithm overall. To be honest I would rather have the odd bit of z fighting or poly overlapping, with maximum performance, rather than a lower poly count with uber accurate z sorting.

    And I think with clever level design/modelling, you can eradicate most z fighting glitches.

    I'd probably only consider a BSP for collision detection. But again, with the sort of polygon count we're talking about, I think it's best to keep things as simple as possible, I think for most levels a quad tree or even uniform grid would offer the best performance for per polygon collision detection (I could be wrong, as I don't know much about trees).

    Someone else recommended me a BSP tree actually, and one of the things I overlooked, is if used only with static geometry, the tree would only have to be generated once, rather than every frame. However, at a guess, I think the increased look-ups on a complex BSP tree would probably outweigh the extra accuracy it would provide, performance wise.

    The thing about pixelBender, is I think it's a common misconception that it uses the GPU for the rendering. The toolkit uses the GPU, the Flash player uses the CPU, just like it does for everything else. And it's insanely CPU heavy, just like any of the Flash pixel level filters.

    Incidentally, you asked about open source - this engine is being developed for proprietary use, purely to make games, and that's one of the reasons it's so fast. I haven't had to factor in usability at all, I've just done everything as fast as I possibly can, at the expense of usability and doing things "properly".

    So although I might change my mind, I don't plan on a public release. It would be too much work, I'd have to restructure the whole thing really, and it probably wouldn't run as fast as it does now

    PS - the city demo has mip mapping (texture LODing) - and for models with a decent polycount, I'll almost certainly implement geometry LODing too

    Cheers,
    RumbleSushi
    Last edited by rumblesushi; 01-29-2010 at 12:25 PM.

  20. #40
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    This looks good. I'm usually not big on demos, but it looks like the jump from where you are now to an actual game shouldn't be too hard and would not hinder performance much.

    Runs at rock solid 60FPS on my 3 year old WPad.

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