dcsimg
A Flash Developer Resource Site

Page 5 of 10 FirstFirst 123456789 ... LastLast
Results 81 to 100 of 193

Thread: Health care victory

  1. #81
    supervillain gerbick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    undecided.
    Posts
    18,978
    God I love the deflections and non-answers. I wonder if people treated their wedding vows the same way where "I do" becomes some form of answering a question with a question.

    And before any of you bastards get your panties in a bunch, I'm talking of none of you directly. Just an observation of today's news - I'm catching up with the last week of ****ery.

    Anyway... the masses that are protesting about healthcare seem as if they would be happier with a 40+ year old system that lets more people that are US citizens fall through the cracks somehow.

    I welcome an eloquent answer as to exactly why people are against healthcare reform. Happy with the system? Don't care if your parents die? Not thinking about your own death because you have enough money right now? Or something therein?

    If it's solely around budget; protest the wars. I know there's gotta be a better way to spend 10 billion USD a month - almost 1 trillion since 2001. That would have been better used to educate our own folks, regulate the folks that ****ed up Wall Street and avoid TARP, et al - which, they're actually paying back in record time (Bush got lucky there).

    So... why dislike it so much? Anybody got a truthful answer? I can handle the truth. I promise.

    [ Hello ] | [ gerbick ] | [ Ω ]

  2. #82
    Hood Rich FlashLackey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    148
    Few people are "against healthcare reform." The debate is over what specific types of reform would work best to reduce costs and increase access without reducing quality.

    I can't speak for everyone. But, I think that the general objection to Obama's plan is that it will increase rather than reduce costs.
    "We don't estimate speeches." - CBO Director Doug Elmendorf

  3. #83
    supervillain gerbick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    undecided.
    Posts
    18,978
    Speculation has led to 40 years of non-reform.

    [ Hello ] | [ gerbick ] | [ Ω ]

  4. #84
    Hood Rich FlashLackey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    148
    The objection isn't based on speculation but on the actual history of health care legislation and entitlements:

    1965: Medicare instituted. Projected cost by 1990: $9 billion.
    1990: Actual cost of Medicare by 1990: $67 billion.

    1987: Medicaid hospital subsidy. Projected to cost $100 million/year by 1992.
    1992: Actual cost of hospital subsidy: $100 billion.

    1988: Medicare home-care benefit established. Projected cost for 1993: $4 billion.
    1993: Actual cost of home-care benefit: $10 billion.

    ---

    I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell to anyone who believes that the projections Obama has given will be even remotely close to the actual cost of this bill.
    "We don't estimate speeches." - CBO Director Doug Elmendorf

  5. #85
    supervillain gerbick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    undecided.
    Posts
    18,978
    All that means is that the projections that the Republicans offered in their "offerings" in the name of "health care reform" were invariably off too.

    [ Hello ] | [ gerbick ] | [ Ω ]

  6. #86
    Spartan Mop Warrior Loyal Rogue's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    The Pit of Despair
    Posts
    513
    Quote Originally Posted by FlashLackey View Post
    I can't speak for everyone. But, I think that the general objection to Obama's plan is that it will increase rather than reduce costs.
    Right now that's unfounded speculation.
    Some analysts predict it will increase costs, some predict it will decrease costs, and others, including the CBO, don't think it will have an impact on costs one way or the other.
    The only thing that is certain at this point is how much healthcare cost have been rising every year and something had to be done before it was too late.
    The Republicans had an unobstructed 8 years under Bush to reform healthcare if they had wanted to.
    Obviously that wasn't/isn't their priority.
    ::
    "Just go make web and stfu already." - jAQUAN

    "Twitter is a public display of verbal diarrhea that comes out in small squirts." - Gerbick

  7. #87
    Hood Rich FlashLackey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    148
    Quote Originally Posted by Loyal Rogue View Post
    Right now that's unfounded speculation.
    Some analysts predict it will increase costs, some predict it will decrease costs, and others, including the CBO, don't think it will have an impact on costs one way or the other.
    The only thing that is certain at this point is how much healthcare cost have been rising every year and something had to be done before it was too late.
    The Republicans had an unobstructed 8 years under Bush to reform healthcare if they had wanted to.
    Obviously that wasn't/isn't their priority.
    Think about that.

    It's certain that healthcare costs have been rising every year and something had to be done.

    Yet, by your explanation, whether or not costs will go up or down is anyones guess.

    Yes. Good thing that the Democrats got on the ball and passed something that according to you is a coin-flip between making it better or worse.
    "We don't estimate speeches." - CBO Director Doug Elmendorf

  8. #88
    Hood Rich FlashLackey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    148
    Even worse, a major premise for health care reform was that the current Medicare system is on track to go bankrupt.

    Obama's bill doesn't even pretend to address that problem. Instead, the argument is that it doesn't add as much to costs as their opponents claim. So, we're still on track to bankrupt health care in this country, even accepting Obama's pie-in-the-sky numbers.
    "We don't estimate speeches." - CBO Director Doug Elmendorf

  9. #89
    Hood Rich FlashLackey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    148
    Quote Originally Posted by gerbick View Post
    All that means is that the projections that the Republicans offered in their "offerings" were invariably off too.
    You mean their role in Medicare?
    "We don't estimate speeches." - CBO Director Doug Elmendorf

  10. #90
    Spartan Mop Warrior Loyal Rogue's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    The Pit of Despair
    Posts
    513
    Quote Originally Posted by FlashLackey View Post
    Yes. Good thing that the Democrats got on the ball and passed something that according to you is a coin-flip between making it better or worse.
    When you put it that way I have to agree with you.
    Better a 50% chance of making it better by doing something, than a 100% chance of it getting worse by doing nothing.
    ::
    "Just go make web and stfu already." - jAQUAN

    "Twitter is a public display of verbal diarrhea that comes out in small squirts." - Gerbick

  11. #91
    supervillain gerbick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    undecided.
    Posts
    18,978
    America... quickly becoming the country where the cost of living is going up and the chances of living are going down.

    [ Hello ] | [ gerbick ] | [ Ω ]

  12. #92
    Databarnak atRax's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    Zurich, Switzerland
    Posts
    258
    Quote Originally Posted by gerbick View Post
    America... quickly becoming the country where the cost of living is going up and the chances of living are going down.
    Every bubbles pop one day or another(8-10 years). The further it is from the ground the less it will splash on the floor. The only problem is to know who's the current generator and to assume it.
    I ask you all to concentrate really hard on the freedom of all being. Its hard not to be very angry it is impossible We have to focus this confusion frustration helplessness feeling into a creative outlet Anger can spawn such amazing creativity through Street art Free art to teach each other know each other a language our evolution Go ahead and break some dumb rules

  13. #93
    supervillain gerbick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    undecided.
    Posts
    18,978
    The only bubble I want to burst is the fact that people are overlooking that many people fall through the cracks. The one's protesting all have insurance and coverage. It's honestly become an argument of privilege.

    [ Hello ] | [ gerbick ] | [ Ω ]

  14. #94
    Hood Rich FlashLackey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    148
    Quote Originally Posted by Loyal Rogue View Post
    When you put it that way I have to agree with you.
    Better a 50% chance of making it better by doing something, than a 100% chance of it getting worse by doing nothing.
    The problem is that the "getting better" side of the coin doesn't improve things enough to avoid the dangerous path we are on.

    So, we flip a coin. Heads, we are still on track to bankrupt health care soon. Tails, we bankrupt health care sooner than we had originally thought. Either way, the problem hasn't been addressed by this legislation.

    Quote Originally Posted by gerbick View Post
    The only bubble I want to burst is the fact that people are overlooking that many people fall through the cracks. The one's protesting all have insurance and coverage. It's honestly become an argument of privilege.
    Many that are protesting are not over-looking the issue of access. Example protest arguments: Truly lowering costs would, by nature of being more affordable, increase access to many who can't currently afford health care. Many who do not have health care can afford it but choose not to buy it. Less expensive alternatives address access (such as McCains voucher system).
    Last edited by FlashLackey; 03-29-2010 at 03:08 AM.
    "We don't estimate speeches." - CBO Director Doug Elmendorf

  15. #95
    supervillain gerbick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    undecided.
    Posts
    18,978
    Quote Originally Posted by McCain Voucher Plan
    1. Will result in coverage gaps for many individuals.
    2. Insurers are prone to “cherry-pick” the healthiest of patients as in the current system
    3. The most-costly individuals to cover (those with chronic or pre-existing conditions) will either 1) remain uninsured or 2) will need to be subsidized with increased government spending
    4. Under a private market insurance system, anyone with a pre-existing condition will find it difficult to switch carriers if insured and find a carrier if uninsured. McCain’s proposal is to establish a non-profit corporation with help from the states to cover these individuals
    5. Costs will be higher for the elderly, individuals with pre-existing conditions or higher risk profiles (this is the natural result of a market-based system)
    6. Individual tax benefit ($5k for families/$2,500 for individuals) by itself is will not cover annual health insurance premiums. Out-of-pocket costs will be on top of this, and similarly will be an additional expense borne by consumers.
    7. For individuals and families at the lower income spectrum, the after-tax impact of the tax benefit will be far less than the max benefit
    Quote Originally Posted by Obama Health Plan
    1. Obama’s plan marks more of a fundamental change in the overall health system, and thus will be far more difficult to enact – even with a democratic House and Senate
    2. Plan will require immeasurable increases government spending at a time when the federal government is facing record
    3. Plan is predicated on significant costs savings in the overall health system which are outside the control of government
    4. Changes in regulatory changes to private market insurance are more substantial than McCain’s, and thus will be more difficult to push through legislative bodies
    5. Obama will face criticism from Clinton supporters that his health plan does not go far enough to provide coverage to all uninsured Americans
    McCain's voucher plan would have taxed employee health benefits. $2500 doesn't go far unless you're single these days.

    Meh. It still doesn't resolve the original problem. No protest about healthcare solves the fact that 1 Trillion has been wasted in a set of wars that will never be repaid.

    [ Hello ] | [ gerbick ] | [ Ω ]

  16. #96
    Hood Rich FlashLackey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    148
    A number of those points are wrong or misleading. For example, McCain's plan included a system to address the additional costs of pre-existing conditions.

    It would have worked better to resolve the problem by addressing one of the main errors that broke the system in the first place: tying payment of health insurance to employers.
    "We don't estimate speeches." - CBO Director Doug Elmendorf

  17. #97
    Spartan Mop Warrior Loyal Rogue's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    The Pit of Despair
    Posts
    513
    Quote Originally Posted by flashlackey View Post
    a number of those points are wrong or misleading. For example, mccain's plan included a system to address the additional costs of pre-existing conditions.

    It would have worked better to resolve the problem by addressing one of the main errors that broke the system in the first place: Tying payment of health insurance to employers.
    Quote Originally Posted by flashlackey View Post
    i have a bridge in brooklyn to sell to anyone who believes that
    ::
    "Just go make web and stfu already." - jAQUAN

    "Twitter is a public display of verbal diarrhea that comes out in small squirts." - Gerbick

  18. #98
    Hood Rich FlashLackey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    148
    Just look at the difference in outcomes between comparable types of legislation.

    Obama's expansion of entitlements is likely to have an outcome similar to other expansions of entitlements (grossly underestimated medicare expansion costs).

    A reduction is likely to be similar to other reductions that worked, like Clinton's welfare reform: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persona...pportunity_Act
    "We don't estimate speeches." - CBO Director Doug Elmendorf

  19. #99
    Spartan Mop Warrior Loyal Rogue's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    The Pit of Despair
    Posts
    513
    I don't see how they are at all comparable.

    No other prior "entitlement" legislation has placed the same kind of compulsion to purchase from private industry in the way this one does.
    This is breaking new ground for the US in a way not done before, and we'll both have to hold our breath and hope for the best outcome, because nobody can say with any certainty what impacts this will have in the long run.
    Anything else is baseless fearmongering born of sour grapes.

    No ultra conservative is going to give Obama or the Dems any benefit of the doubt or a fair chance in anything they do.

    Once all the terms/costs/benefits of this kick-in and it starts hitting people in the pockets and affecting most Americans personally (either good or bad) then we'll be able to say if this was Obama's "New Deal" or "Iraq War".
    Either way, whatever ignorant speculation you or I post here won't have a bearing on it one way or t'other.

    I wish him, congress, and America the best of success, and if the Repubs take Washington back over I hope they've learned their lesson and wish them success for America too.
    ::
    "Just go make web and stfu already." - jAQUAN

    "Twitter is a public display of verbal diarrhea that comes out in small squirts." - Gerbick

  20. #100
    Hood Rich FlashLackey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    148
    Forcing people to buy insurance is just one component of this. I don't see how that moves the legislation away from being similar in many substantial ways to other medicare entitlement expansions that cost way more than projected.
    "We don't estimate speeches." - CBO Director Doug Elmendorf

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  




Click Here to Expand Forum to Full Width

HTML5 Development Center