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Thread: Offshore energy

  1. #41
    Hood Rich FlashLackey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loyal Rogue View Post
    As our government has become more friendly to (influenced by $$$) multinational corporations they have financially rewarded outsourcing of mfg.
    We used to "punish" countries that used slave/child labor by imposing a tariff on the goods they brought into our country.
    If a pair of shoes was made in a country using slave wages at a cost of $0.10 and the same pair of shoes was made in the US at minimum wage for a cost of $2.00 then we would penalize the foreign company by imposing a $1.90 tariff thus eliminating any incentive to buy from countries that exploited workers or used unfair business practices like China manipulating their currency.

    Over the last few decades the trade tariffs have all but disappeared in that regard.
    Consequently, as the tariffs decreased so did US manufacture of goods.
    What tariff are you referring to specifically? Smoot-Hawley? The one that created an international trade war and made the great depression worse?
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  2. #42
    Senior Member cancerinform's Avatar
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    Looking at the extent of the oil spill, this will be the end of offshore oil drilling. It looks like that the price to drill for oil is now getting too high. I hope they get it under control quickly.
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  3. #43
    Spartan Mop Warrior Loyal Rogue's Avatar
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    No, I'm not referring to an extreme act like Smoot-Hawley.
    Going to extremes always causes disaster.
    (There needs to be a balance. Just like between pure socialism and pure capitalism, neither of which can succeed on their own.)

    Right now we are at the opposite extreme from Smoot-Hawley.
    S-M tariffs were ridiculously high which caused economic backlash and retaliation by foreign nations.
    By comparision, right now we are under ridiculously low or nonexistent tariffs which has caused the extinction of our mfg base and an even longer term economic backlash/death spiral.

    The sad "silver lining" here is that even if we reinstated Smoot-Hawley today, we wouldn't have to worry about the same consequences as in 1930 because at this point we don't produce and export any American-made goods that foreign nations could retaliate against.
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  4. #44
    Spartan Mop Warrior Loyal Rogue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cancerinform View Post
    Looking at the extent of the oil spill, this will be the end of offshore oil drilling. It looks like that the price to drill for oil is now getting too high. I hope they get it under control quickly.
    I just heard this morning that the leak is actually spilling 5 times as much oil as they original said and that it is on track to become the worst offshore oil spill in history.
    This could end up being Obama's Katrina, especially after he just came out publicly in favor of more offshore drilling.

    One thing is certain... this guarantees that Florida won't be passing any offshore drilling agreements in the near future.

    Unfortunately, people are stupid sheep with short memories.
    In a couple of years when gas prices are $5/gal, Big Oil will be inciting the same crowd as last time to scream for oil rigs off every coast and in every wildlife refuge.
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  5. #45
    Flashkit historian Frets's Avatar
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    Right now the weather is working against cleanup. However the pentagon is sitting on it's hands waiting for obama as well
    {quote]
    At the Pentagon, NBC's Jim Miklaszewski reported growing frustration among officials there Friday morning because they had not received any official order to activate assets under the U.S. Northern Command, which was created in 2002 specifically to help civilian authorities.
    So far, two Air Force C-130s have been sent to Mississippi and were awaiting orders to start dumping chemicals on the oil spill.
    [/quote]
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36870222...s-environment/

    I wonder if Obama was aware of the options he has before him.


    And in related news. Some are blaiming Haliburton for the accident due to faulty construction.

  6. #46
    pablo cruisin' hanratty21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frets View Post
    And in related news. Some are blaiming Haliburton for the accident due to faulty construction.
    So, they are blaming Haliburton for a drilling platform that was made by Transocean? I think not.
    "Why does it hurt when I pee?" -- F. Zappa |

  7. #47
    Flashkit historian Frets's Avatar
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    Transocean owns the rig and Halliburton provided services related to the operation of the Deepwater Horizon
    http://www.businessweek.com/ap/finan.../D9FDDC8G0.htm

    The scrutiny on cementing will focus attention on Halliburton Co., the oilfield-services firm that was handling the cementing process on the rig, which burned and sank last week
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...DDLETopStories

  8. #48
    N' then I might just
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    ........To Montana.
    david petley's Avatar
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    Everyone still thinks there might be a solution that does not change the way we live for evermore.

    Get used to walking.

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  9. #49
    Flashkit historian Frets's Avatar
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    David, It's been over a year since my last car. Fortunately I live within walking distance for most essentials.
    I don't miss.
    Loan or lease payments
    Paying for gas.
    Paying for insurance
    Paying for maintenence and repairs
    Paying for a replacement.

    I do miss the occasional date.

  10. #50
    Hood Rich FlashLackey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loyal Rogue View Post
    No, I'm not referring to an extreme act like Smoot-Hawley.
    So, which previous tariffs were you for, specifically? Just trying to understand your suggestion because I didn't see any that ever worked quite the way you described about off-setting labor prices, etc. Maybe I missed one?
    "We don't estimate speeches." - CBO Director Doug Elmendorf

  11. #51
    Spartan Mop Warrior Loyal Rogue's Avatar
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    I'm not speaking of one particular act of tariff legislation from one particular year or party.
    I'm speaking in general about the role of tariffs to balance trade and promote manufacture of goods within the country.
    As Thomas Jefferson wrote, "The government of the United States, at a very early period, when establishing its tariff on foreign importations, were very much guided in their selection of objects by a desire to encourage manufactures within ourselves."
    With no tariffs to protect American mfg, corporations will just outsource product mfg to the lowest bidder as we have been seeing for the last few decades.

    If you look back over the history of tariffs they have fluctuated, sometimes wildly, from year to year.
    Sometimes properly in response to trade/wage imbalance... other times abused as retaliation or a greed based government grab for more revenue.

    Just like every other political or diplomatic tool at our disposal, when used correctly it works.
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  12. #52
    Hood Rich FlashLackey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loyal Rogue View Post
    Just like every other political or diplomatic tool at our disposal, when used correctly it works.
    Which specific one(s) do you think worked? The Chicken tax? Bush's Steel Tariff?
    "We don't estimate speeches." - CBO Director Doug Elmendorf

  13. #53
    Spartan Mop Warrior Loyal Rogue's Avatar
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    Since the lack of them coincides with the decline of our mfg base, I would have to say that all of them worked to a certain extent.
    Of course, any individual piece of tariff legislation is going to have flaws, some are going to be less effective than others, and some are going to have unintended negative results, so us debating the individual merits of one tariff out of millions is wasted effort.

    The basic goal of tariffs is to protect domestic mfg.
    To this end, almost every other country we import from is using them effectively against us... which has helped to create our trade imbalance.
    When we had stronger tariffs, we had a stronger mfg base.
    Now that we've weakened our tariffs, our mfg base has weakened to the point of non-existence.

    Obviously you don't agree with protectionist tariffs, so I'll ask, what change would you like to see and how do you think it would help protect and grow domestic mfg and balance our trade deficit?
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  14. #54
    Spartan Mop Warrior Loyal Rogue's Avatar
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    Now that song is back in my head... damn you HR.
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  15. #55
    supervillain gerbick's Avatar
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    So... I guess this means $4 gas this Summer... again.

    [ Hello ] | [ gerbick ] | [ Ω ]

  16. #56
    Spartan Mop Warrior Loyal Rogue's Avatar
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    Only if we're lucky... oil has already hit $85 a barrel just on the prospect of recovery...
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  17. #57
    pablo cruisin' hanratty21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerbick View Post
    So... I guess this means $4 gas this Summer... again.
    Already about 10-15 cents away from that in Cali (premium, anyway.)
    "Why does it hurt when I pee?" -- F. Zappa |

  18. #58
    Hood Rich FlashLackey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loyal Rogue View Post
    Since the lack of them coincides with the decline of our mfg base, I would have to say that all of them worked to a certain extent.
    "Correlation does not imply causation" fallacy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loyal Rogue View Post
    Of course, any individual piece of tariff legislation is going to have flaws, some are going to be less effective than others, and some are going to have unintended negative results, so us debating the individual merits of one tariff out of millions is wasted effort.
    Millions? There haven't been that many pieces of tariff legislation in our history. Nearly all of them were either in retaliation to other tariffs or were eagerly dropped due to the negative consequences.

    Tariffs are robbing Peter to feed Paul.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loyal Rogue View Post
    The basic goal of tariffs is to protect domestic mfg.
    To this end, almost every other country we import from is using them effectively against us... which has helped to create our trade imbalance.
    Most countries doing substantial trade were members of GATT and now WTO, which makes most tariffs illegal. That's what happened with the Bush steel tariff. WTO found it illegal. So, it was cut to avoid a trade war.

    The new scam that WTO is working against are just a sneaky form of tariff: subsidies. Instead of taxing competition, governments now simply subsidize their own companies to give them a similar relative advantage. The problem, of course, is the same, it's taking money from one group of people (the rest of the tax payers) in order to advantage another (the special interest industry that sells their vote to a candidate to push their subsidy).

    Quote Originally Posted by Loyal Rogue View Post
    When we had stronger tariffs, we had a stronger mfg base.
    Now that we've weakened our tariffs, our mfg base has weakened to the point of non-existence.
    Our mfg base has become weaker ever since unions entered the business of inflating labor compensation far beyond what it's market value is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loyal Rogue View Post
    Obviously you don't agree with protectionist tariffs, so I'll ask, what change would you like to see and how do you think it would help protect and grow domestic mfg and balance our trade deficit?
    First, remove the exception for labor unions in RICO law and establish anti-trust laws against labor monopolies for the purpose of coercing compensation (for the exact same reason why we have anti-trust laws against industry monopolies for the purpose of coercing prices).

    Second, enact some variant of the FairTax.

    That is probably all it would take to get us back on track economically, making us hands down the most desirable country in the world to do business in, lowering prices for domestic goods and increasing tax revenues.

    ---

    If you don't like the music, stop spinning plates.
    Last edited by FlashLackey; 05-02-2010 at 03:06 AM.
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  19. #59
    pablo cruisin' hanratty21's Avatar
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  20. #60
    Spartan Mop Warrior Loyal Rogue's Avatar
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    So your answer is to do away with wages and taxes... how surprising.

    Major corporations already pay $0 in taxes and the average Union wage is about $50k which is the median in this country, and has actually been declining in real wage value since the 70's so I don't see how that's overinflated.
    Of course, during that same period while average middle class worker wages have been declining, CEO wages have increased by 1500%, so if you want to talk about overinflated wages your aim seems to be a little off the mark.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zhoos1oY404

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