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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by jAQUAN View Post
    The only people trying to move on are the html fanboys defending their decision to never learn flash and clients convinced their product has to work on iOS. The rest of us are reluctantly remaining competitive.
    Plus... Im a professional computer programer and artist, I have worked in both flash platform and HTML since 1996, I can design a website like flashkit from scratch with PHP javascript and what ever flash elements in a month. I currently work as the IT General Manager for Iverson Dental Labs, I currently have three investors ones for a flash game I am developing in AS3, one for a PHP MMORPG I am developing, and one for a .net Point of sales system...

    Im a little more then just a HTML fanboy... what do you do? what is your backing your claims to know more then internet trends?

    just wondering, im not trying to bash you or nothing! I completely respect your opinion, I just dont understand it...
    Last edited by YBAB; 04-05-2012 at 05:25 PM.

  2. #42
    Total Universe Mod jAQUAN's Avatar
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    My comment was not a claim that certain things can't be done. I was requesting that you share your story of how fun it was to do certain things. Talk about how many technology dependancies you relied on. Talk about how differences in box model rendering across browsers, their versions and OS's consumed development time in hacking CSS. Let us know how easy it was to create bullet proof reusable sub-classes with public and private variables and custom events in javascript. List how many libraries you had to cram in to require.js. How simple was it to handle display lists and hit tracking in <canvas>? Mainly I want to hear about how all that overhead makes sense when it's all available out of the box with as3.

    I was also stating that a success should include looking and running the same in all browsers and to a certain extent, mobile devices. Get a media experience/game using DRM video with alpha channels, streaming and cached audio, perlin noise filters, 3d physics & lighting running more than 24fps in IE7 and I'll be the one who's impressed.

    I'm not saying it can't done, I'm saying its reinventing the wheel with more parts for no good reason.
    Last edited by jAQUAN; 04-06-2012 at 11:01 AM.

  3. #43
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    <3 you are right sir... it is a super pain... in fact you got me there... yes flash is the solution most of the time, I just think the giant is slowly being slayed!


    Quote Originally Posted by jAQUAN View Post
    I was also stating that a success should include looking and running the same in all browsers and to a certain extent, mobile devices. Get a media experience/game using DRM video with alpha channels, streaming and cached audio, perlin noise filters, 3d physics & lighting running more than 24fps in IE7 and I'll be the one who's impressed.

    I am currently working on that in my free time, once I have something thats actually of worth Ill post it for you to check out, and ill chronicle how much of a headache it all was...


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyfu4...layer_embedded <---- QUAKE 2 all HTML5



    till then check this out: http://www.hongkiat.com/blog/48-excellent-html5-demos/ I just found it myself
    Last edited by YBAB; 04-06-2012 at 03:26 PM.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by jAQUAN View Post
    As a plugin, flash has a bleak future, not due to irrelevance. If it were re-imagined as a core engine like webkit (flashkit?) with all the same hardware access it would be very difficult to deny it. Hardware manufactures, be it car stereo or wi-fi enabled refrigerator would no longer have to get in bed with android or pay for a custom solution. I would love to hear the argument for javascript over actionscript in that situation.
    If Apple was concerned with "the highest quality possible" as they proclaim, they would have been the logical partners in this. Instead of taking advantage of the large, established community of developers familiar with UI development in Flash, they insist on their still esoteric platform.

    I guess I can't blame them for pursuing what is arguably in their business interest. It just seems to undermine the way they position themselves as putting quality first. Maybe they miscalculated in thinking that there would be a flood of people wanting to learn Objective C. Instead, developers would rather work on new ways to avoid it.

    Quote Originally Posted by jAQUAN View Post
    I'm not saying it can't done, I'm saying its reinventing the wheel with more parts for no good reason.
    Exactly. Saying that it can be done in HTML is like saying that walking from Los Angeles to New York can be done. Yes. It can be done. But, why would you choose to do it when we have airplanes?
    "We don't estimate speeches." - CBO Director Doug Elmendorf

  5. #45
    Total Universe Mod jAQUAN's Avatar
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    Objective C is not terrible, it just doesn't make sense for most commissioned projects. If you're a game or otherwise in-house studio who's business model is best supported by the Apple store, then it's the right commitment. If you rely on happy clients, then multi-screen is almost always part of the conversation at which point the most cost effective solution is a single code base. Now I gave up fanboy-ism when I got my first playstation and I'm not a flash fanboy now. I'll go where the power is. If a cross-platform language/IDE comes out that doesn't make me check my morals at the door, I'll be all over it. For now that's Unity3d and should I be fortunate enough to make a living using it, I won't return to the web until sanity does.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by jAQUAN View Post
    I won't return to the web until sanity does.
    Unfortunately things are only going to get worse, and the internet becomes more and more available to all the idiots who do nothing but make meme comics and play facebook games..

    soon they are gonna want to to program without having to learn how to program...

  7. #47
    Total Universe Mod jAQUAN's Avatar
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    Don't read the article, just read the title.
    http://addyosmani.com/blog/building-...godb-and-haml/

    This is what I'm talking about. Before you've written one line of code you've sold your soul to a handful of libraries. At runtime this is usually negligible since js engines like V8 and JIT compiling can blast right through the code wall but when you're debugging or trying to improve performance, you have to understand how each of these might be involved.
    In some cases this is totally acceptable like when importing a js file that nicely wraps the twitter api but in terms of what backbone.js brings to the table you're caught between a rock on a hard place. We want to write segmented, reusable code that's easy to edit and maintain. Backbone is probably the best solution for MVC in js today to the point where its not even an option to not use it. Sure you can role your own model view controller but good luck justifying charging your clients for time spent building the tools needed to build their app.

    I guess it depends on how you feel about frameworks and libraries. I'm not a fan since I become reliant on their api's and don't really become a stronger developer because of it. If your skills atrophy you can find yourself hurting when you need to write something from scratch. But there's no way in hell I'm ever going to spend time emulating what jquery already does. I just don't like that concern for budget and deadlines has taken the option away from me.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by jAQUAN View Post
    Objective C is not terrible, it just doesn't make sense for most commissioned projects. If you're a game or otherwise in-house studio who's business model is best supported by the Apple store, then it's the right commitment. If you rely on happy clients, then multi-screen is almost always part of the conversation at which point the most cost effective solution is a single code base. Now I gave up fanboy-ism when I got my first playstation and I'm not a flash fanboy now. I'll go where the power is. If a cross-platform language/IDE comes out that doesn't make me check my morals at the door, I'll be all over it. For now that's Unity3d and should I be fortunate enough to make a living using it, I won't return to the web until sanity does.
    Yeah. I didn't mean to suggest that Objective C is terrible (although it does indeed have its cons). It's just not nearly as ubiquitous as other platforms. Allowing for more ubiquitous platforms would give providers access to a broader and less expensive base of expertise along with facilitating the demand for cross-platform development.
    "We don't estimate speeches." - CBO Director Doug Elmendorf

  9. #49
    Total Universe Mod jAQUAN's Avatar
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    Yeah something like mtasc would at least allow for custom tooling and portability. If something ever happens to apple's strong hold, we'll probably see that happen but I'm not holding my breath. Eventually projects like Corona, phonegap, Unity etc. will have enough polish to make it feel that way.

    I'm going to make a prediction. Browsers, starting with safari will be able to navigate to and stream apps right from the apple store. Not html5 apps, but compiled code. Apple will claim they invented it when in reality we will have left flash-ville and made four lefts.

  10. #50
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    Hah. I'd say that prediction has pretty good odds.
    "We don't estimate speeches." - CBO Director Doug Elmendorf

  11. #51
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    It is interesting that Adobe is still developing AIR (now version 3.3 beta) and also the Flash player (now 11.3 beta). May be this is Apple's way to compete against Windows by letting them create IE without support for the Flash player and then Flash comes full back and has no support in IE.
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  12. #52
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    Again, Adobe is pushing these updates out at an amazing pace. AIR 3.3 Beta now gives you much better native background app functionality and the ability to test in the Xcode simulator. I put all my eggs in the Flash to mobile basket and so far they're not letting me down.

    I also dont know much about Unity but according to some recent articles, they are now publishing to SWF and playing nice with Adobe.

    I like your browser take jAQUAN...it would be hilarious if it came full circle like that but I can see it being a real possibility.

    It's funny, when I went to San Francisco for the annual Facebook conference, there was a lot of buzz about them possibly launching a Facebook App platform that only supported HTML5. I havent heard one thing about that since. I'm getting burned out on all this stuff myself. I'm fighting battles at the agency almost daily concerning HTML5. Clients always want everything in HTML5, they want to convert all of our Flash stuff, banners, etc... and it's a pain in the ass. I always end up talking them off the ledge but it's starting to wear me down.

  13. #53
    Total Universe Mod jAQUAN's Avatar
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    Since it was a major PR coup that changed minds (not facts) it would take the same to shift us back on track. Developers should strive to estimate projects as accurately as possible so that html5 gets the stigma of being frivolous. Sadly that won't happen because we're all trying to make a buck. Major figures need to point out its shortcomings... but unless you represent a company that controls the mobile market it's an easily dismissed stance.
    Adobe could have at least been a voice heard but instead open sourced everything but the tech that could have righted the ship. Their efforts in narrowing down a true html5 IDE are unprecedented but their track record in that area has virtually no merit.
    Their excuse for halting mobile flash support centers around the cost of localizing for an endless array of chipsets and customized OS's. This is exactly the kind of thing that haxors at large excel at. If Adobe had retained control, nurtured a community (like macrodmedia would have) and spearheaded a campaign to repair flash's image, we'd be talking about something a lot less bizarro.
    Flash is not dead, but it feels a bit like life support. It's a rare case where we can rightfully blame the management.

  14. #54
    Dignitary rynoe's Avatar
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    Flash was fataly wounded in 2006 (bought by Adobe), died in 2009 and is now a stinking, rotting zombie that everyone hates but still needs around cause it's the only one who can reach the top shelves.

    HTML5 is a cute, fresh newborn who certainly can jump, but being short and unable to walk is a bit of an issue. But so what! It's soooo cute!

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by rynoe View Post
    Flash was fataly wounded in 2006 (bought by Adobe), died in 2009 and is now a stinking, rotting zombie that everyone hates but still needs around cause it's the only one who can reach the top shelves.

    HTML5 is a cute, fresh newborn who certainly can jump, but being short and unable to walk is a bit of an issue. But so what! It's soooo cute!
    No. HTML5 is that kid everyone says is cute to please the parents but really knows that they're goofy looking.
    "We don't estimate speeches." - CBO Director Doug Elmendorf

  16. #56
    Total Universe Mod jAQUAN's Avatar
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    HTML5 is the new IE6

  17. #57
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    Ok I just rejoined Flashkit but I'm going to wade in here. I think Flash's days are numbered unless it evolves into a program that will render files in HTML5. Personaly, I think that's the way it will go. Customers want to see code that they can have their own employees modify. I think it's already happening at Adobe, but it is called Edge and is in the Cloud. Personally, I hate the Cloud. I don't won't to rent software and have it go away if I hit a dry spell. Yes I think Flash will become the new Wordstar or Aldus Persuasion.

  18. #58
    Dignitary rynoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by p4aul View Post
    Ok I just rejoined Flashkit but I'm going to wade in here. I think Flash's days are numbered unless it evolves into a program that will render files in HTML5. Personaly, I think that's the way it will go. Customers want to see code that they can have their own employees modify. I think it's already happening at Adobe, but it is called Edge and is in the Cloud. Personally, I hate the Cloud. I don't won't to rent software and have it go away if I hit a dry spell. Yes I think Flash will become the new Wordstar or Aldus Persuasion.
    Yea I agree.

    We javascript monkeys were so damn happy when Apple (well you know who) dropped that nuke on Adobe and we were so damn sure flash was dead but wtf!

    It still lived! damnit! What the hell!

    We need to continue to troll these stupid flash forums and post negative flash comments if we want to finally kill flash and make it the next failed software even if we get banned and have to restart a different account.
    Last edited by rynoe; 04-07-2013 at 01:31 AM. Reason: sarcasm was lost in the effort

  19. #59
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    That was not my intention at all! I like Flash and all Adobe products. I just think that The web has moved away from Flash and Swf. HTMl 5 and the cloud is the way it's heading now. Microsoft started talking about it several years ago and now has committed to it with Azure. Google is in and now Adobe. I can't stand $50 US a month for forever myself So I will look for open source alternatives when CS 6 too outdated to work with tomorrow's web. I would like to see an Open source product like Flash that will build animations with a timeline and a stage. Rather than say Flash forever! I think we ought to say Power to the computers! Computers of the worlds unite! However, this thread is dead I wouldn't have posted at all had I looked at the date. It said 2012 and I thought it said 2013!
    Paul

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