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02-16-2001, 09:41 PM
#121
FK Times - Head Publisher FK Board Heavyweight
Originally posted by ZeroX
HOLY CRAP!!! Why did you guys have to tell me about that! Not only will I order the book, but I'm afriad of 2006! Good god! Please don't kill me now!! I'm only 13!! That means I'll be 19!! Arghhhhh...
Look on the bright side. When 2006 comes around just pile up all kinds of bills. You probably won't have to pay any of them.
But first, if 2006 is 5 years away, and you're 13 now, doesn't that mean you'll only be 18? Oh darn, I just took another year away from you didn't I
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02-16-2001, 09:51 PM
#122
Fallible Copies
tbone,
If you are talking about certain individual words, then I agree. Otherwise not. We do not have the originals.
And you think the copies made were not as accurate as the original?
In view of the many thousands of copies of the Bible that were made, how do we know that this reproduction process did not change it beyond all recognition? Well, take the case of the Hebrew Bible, the "Old Testament." In the second half of the sixth century B.C.E., when the Jews returned from their Babylonian exile, a group of Hebrew scholars known as Sopherim, "scribes," became the custodians of the Hebrew Bible text, and it was their responsibility to copy those Scriptures for use in public and private worship. They were highly motivated, professional men, and their work was of the highest quality.
From the seventh century to the tenth century of our Common Era, the heirs of the Sopherim were the Masoretes. Their name comes from a Hebrew word meaning "tradition," and essentially they too were scribes charged with the task of preserving the traditional Hebrew text. The Masoretes were meticulous. For example, the scribe had to use a properly authenticated copy as his master text, and he was not allowed to write anything from memory. He had to check each letter before writing it. Professor Norman K. Gottwald reports: "Something of the care with which they discharged their duties is indicated in the rabbinic requirement that all new manuscripts were to be proofread and defective copies discarded at once."
How accurate was the transmission of the text by the Sopherim and the Masoretes? Until 1947 it was difficult to answer that question, since the earliest available complete Hebrew manuscripts were from the tenth century of our Common Era. In 1947, however, some very ancient manuscript fragments were found in caves in the vicinity of the Dead Sea, including parts of books of the Hebrew Bible. A number of fragments dated to before the time of Christ. Scholars compared these with existing Hebrew manuscripts to confirm the accuracy of the transmission of the text. What was the result of this comparison?
One of the oldest works discovered was the complete book of Isaiah, and the closeness of its text to that of the Masoretic Bible we have today is amazing. Professor Millar Burrows writes: "Many of the differences between the [recently discovered] St. Mark's Isaiah scroll and the Masoretic text can be explained as mistakes in copying. Apart from these, there is a remarkable agreement, on the whole, with the text found in the medieval manuscripts. Such agreement in a manuscript so much older gives reassuring testimony to the general accuracy of the traditional text." Burrows adds: "It is a matter for wonder that through something like a thousand years the text underwent so little alteration."
In the case of the part of the Bible written in Greek by Christians, the so-called New Testament, the copyists were more like gifted amateurs than like the highly trained professional Sopherim. But working as they did under the threat of punishment by the authorities, they took their work seriously. And two things assure us that we today have a text essentially the same as that penned by the original writers. First, we have manuscripts dated much closer to the time of writing than is the case with the Hebrew part of the Bible. Indeed, one fragment of the Gospel of John is from the first half of the second century, less than 50 years from the date when John probably wrote his Gospel. Second, the sheer number of manuscripts that have survived provides a formidable demonstration of the soundness of the text.
On this point, Sir Frederic Kenyon testified: "It cannot be too strongly asserted that in substance the text of the Bible is certain. Especially is this the case with the New Testament. The number of manuscripts of the New Testament, of early translations from it, and of quotations from it in the oldest writers of the Church, is so large that it is practically certain that the true reading of every doubtful passage is preserved in some one or other of these ancient authorities. This can be said of no other ancient book in the world."
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02-16-2001, 09:54 PM
#123
Originally posted by dagrom
think about it...
children of Horses? -> little horses (ponies)
children of Bears? -> little bears (cubs)
children of Cows? -> little cows (calfs)
children of God? -> little gods (us)
...
-dag
it seems to me that this type of thinking is exactly the reason why humans (homosapiens) have fallen out of balance with the rest of the world...
thinking that we are 'godlike' when we aren't is ... well ... naive
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02-16-2001, 10:09 PM
#124
Well for me there is GOD, there are lots of religion coz each of us have different level of spirituality. For me the thing that can save you is to believe in Christ and to do good things. Its not really in your religion.
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02-16-2001, 10:46 PM
#125
Re: Fallible Copies
Originally posted by tbone
Indeed, one fragment of the Gospel of John is from the first half of the second century, less than 50 years from the date when John probably wrote his Gospel. Second, the sheer number of manuscripts that have survived provides a formidable demonstration of the soundness of the text.
On this point, Sir Frederic Kenyon testified: "It cannot be too strongly asserted that in substance the text of the Bible is certain. Especially is this the case with the New Testament. The number of manuscripts of the New Testament, of early translations from it, and of quotations from it in the oldest writers of the Church, is so large that it is practically certain that the true reading of every doubtful passage is preserved in some one or other of these ancient authorities. This can be said of no other ancient book in the world."
But earlier you agreed with me that the New Testament wasn't written down until 300AD?
The new testament wasn't written down for 300 years. That's true.
and this
quoted by you from me
If the dead sea scrolls are so accurate, and prove that the old testament has been reproduced truly, then why hasn't it been released to the scholars of the world? Why is it kept by a select few for their interpretation?
you wrote this...
Well, who would like to have a 'million dollar' piece of huge white stone inside their house if what's written in it is accurately written in a free mini bible?
I think it's quite clear in what I've written that I'm talking about allowing access to the Dead Sea Scrolls by scholars, as opposed to it being interpreted by those who have an agenda to further. OF COURSE they will say it supports what they support.
If others were allowed access they may disprove these claims of parity.
It has nothing to do with people buying it and putting it in their living room.
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02-16-2001, 10:52 PM
#126
Senior Member
Originally posted by agent vivid
Originally posted by dagrom
think about it...
children of Horses? -> little horses (ponies)
children of Bears? -> little bears (cubs)
children of Cows? -> little cows (calfs)
children of God? -> little gods (us)
...
-dag
it seems to me that this type of thinking is exactly the reason why humans (homosapiens) have fallen out of balance with the rest of the world...
thinking that we are 'godlike' when we aren't is ... well ... naive
Actually we are the minority on this planet. For example take all the viruses and make them big as a beetle for example they will cover the entire globe with the lown 15 km in height..Besides that a something wich is visible only with electron microscope will kill us for about a 2 weeks ( Ebola virus ) and we cant do anything. Go figure who is the smartest...
mad_sci
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02-17-2001, 01:25 AM
#127
Fallible Copies
Originally posted by asjb
But earlier you agreed with me that the New Testament wasn't written down until 300AD?
NO.
You said that you have read from somewhere that the New Testament wasn't written down for 300 years. I aggred. The New Testament was NOT written down for 300 years. The writting for the New Testament started in the year 2 B.C.E. and was completed in 98 C.E.
Nowhere did I say that the New Testament was written down until 300AD.
Originally posted by asjb
I think it's quite clear in what I've written that I'm talking about allowing access to the Dead Sea Scrolls by scholars, as opposed to it being interpreted by those who have an agenda to further. OF COURSE they will say it supports what they support.
I misread your post. I thought you want a stone in your bedroom. My mistake.
The Dead Sea Scrolls can be accessed by bible scholars. How, where and what time? You got to email me for that at tbone@joymail.com
Pictures & Videos of the scrolls are widely available to everyone. But if this is not enough, if you want to see it face to face, hold it, touch it, smell it, take a picture of it, bring a hebrew dictionary with you and study it, well you gotta contact me with the address above & I'll give you some leads. And yes they ARE bible scholars.
[Edited by tbone on 02-17-2001 at 02:02 AM]
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02-17-2001, 01:38 AM
#128
Whooooaaaaal.
This thread is getting outa hand!
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02-17-2001, 04:05 AM
#129
N' then I might just Jump back on An' ride Like a cowboy Into the dawn ........To Montana.
Originally posted by DJ_SFinKz
Whooooaaaaal.
This thread is getting outa hand!
I hope not, I and others will be keeping a close eye on it. Remember that tolerance is required with discussions of this type, it is a sensitive subject that has caused disagreement for centuries.
No sarcasm, name-calling or stiff finger pointing (if you know what I mean), will be acceptable.
cheers,
david p.
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02-17-2001, 05:46 AM
#130
Well I stand corrected. If the Dead Sea Scrolls are open to scrutiny then I'm all for it (and wrong).
But even if the stories correlate, what's to prove that what they claim is correct?
I know this is a huge question which has been fought over for thousands of years, and I'm not really seeking an answer, I'm just saying that this is an incredibly difficult arena in which to find any concrete evidence.
As for creationism, how do the dinosaurs fit in? What about carbon dating? I'm a bit worried about Adam and Eve's kids having sex with each other.
Apologies for getting so het up b4 over a misread, i thought you were dismissing what I felt was a valid question.
I've just reread this and I think it's all coming out a bit wrong. It seems really sarcastic. I don't mean it that way, honestly
[Edited by asjb on 02-17-2001 at 04:53 AM]
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02-17-2001, 08:51 AM
#131
Old dog learning new tricks
I really couldn't read all the answers in this thread (I think it's easier to read the Bible lol) but I believe that religions are the reflections of the same thing: the human fear to the unknown combining with the need to have society rules. And of course this doesn't mean that God doesn't exist.
I also believe that religions must unite people of different cultures and not used as tools for separation and war.
Peace
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02-17-2001, 11:17 AM
#132
=)
Originally posted by asjb
As for creationism, how do the dinosaurs fit in?
The Bible does not provide specific answers to this question. According to the Genesis account, animals were created during the fifth and sixth creative periods or ‘days.’ (Days of God are not measured by earthly days when the sun rises & sets. God's Days are thousands of years to man) If the Hebrew expression translated “great sea monsters” [Hebrew, tan·ni·nim'] includes dinosaurs, which often inhabited swampy, watery areas, this would mean that dinosaurs were created on the fifth “day.” (Gen. 1:21) We do not know whether they continued to exist until man was created (toward the close of the sixth “day”). At the very latest it seems likely that they must have disappeared off the earth at the time of the flood of Noah’s day. Dinosaurs were reptiles, and some kinds of dinosaurs bear strong resemblance structurally and otherwise to lizards (sauros is, in fact, the Greek word for “lizard”; saura in Leviticus 11:29, LXX). Not all types of dinosaurs were of such gigantic size. Hence, even if they had survived till the Flood, this would not have required taking pairs of the mammoth varieties into the ark. Other smaller members of the particular family or “kind” to which these belonged would have sufficed to fulfill the divine command.—Gen. 6:19, 20; 7:14.
Some of the older translations of the Bible at times use the word “dragons” to translate the Hebrew tan·ni·nim' (“sea monsters,”). (Ps. 74:13; 148:7; Isa. 27:1, Authorized Version) The term “dragon” (Greek, dra'kon) is found in the Christian Greek Scriptures. It has been suggested as possible that, rather than having a purely mythical source, this expression may originally have been applied to enormous creatures such as the dinosaurs, taking on mythical tones only after these mammoth creatures had long disappeared. Interestingly, many of the mythical depictions of the “dragon” strongly resemble certain types within the family of huge reptilian creatures that includes the dinosaur.
Originally posted by asjb
What about carbon dating?
Dinosaur bones are regularly found in lower earth layers than are human bones, leading many to conclude that they belong to an earlier time period. Geologists call this time the Mesozoic period and subdivide it into the Cretaceous, Jurassic, and Triassic periods. The time frames used for these periods are on the order of tens of millions of years. But has this been established with any certainty?
One method being used to measure the age of fossils is called radiocarbon dating. This dating system measures the rate of decay of radioactive carbon from the point of death of the organism. "Once an organism dies, it no longer absorbs new carbon dioxide from its environment, and the proportion of the isotope falls off over time as it undergoes radioactive decay," states Science and Technology Illustrated.
However, there are severe problems with the system. First, when the fossil is considered to be about 50,000 years old, its level of radioactivity has fallen so low that it can be detected only with great difficulty. Second, even in more recent specimens, this level has fallen so low that it is still extremely difficult to measure accurately. Third, scientists can measure the present-day rate of radioactive carbon formation but have no way of measuring carbon concentrations in the distant past.
So whether they use the radiocarbon method for dating fossils or other methods, such as employing radioactive potassium, uranium, or thorium, for dating rocks, scientists are unable to establish the original levels of those elements through ages of time. Thus, professor of metallurgy Melvin A. Cook observes: "One may only guess these concentrations [of radioactive materials], and the age results thus obtained can be no better than this guess." That would especially be so when we consider that the Flood of Noah's day over 4,300 years ago brought enormous changes in the atmosphere and on earth.
Dartmouth College geologists Charles Officer and Charles Drake further add doubt to the accuracy of radioactive dating. They state: "We conclude that iridium and other associated elements were not deposited instantaneously . . . but rather that there was an intense and variable influx of these constituents during a relatively short geologic time interval on the order of 10,000 to 100,000 years." They argue that the breakup and movement of the continents disrupted the entire globe, causing volcanic eruptions, blocking sunlight and fouling the atmosphere. Certainly, such disruptive events could change radioactivity levels, thus distorting results from modern-day radioactive clocks.
While the radioactive dating method is innovative, it is still based on speculation and assumption. In contrast, the Bible account in the first chapter of Genesis simply states the general order of creation. It allows for possibly thousands of millions of years for the formation of the earth and many millenniums in six creative eras, or "days," to prepare the earth for human habitation.
Some dinosaurs (and pterosaurs) may indeed have been created in the fifth era listed in Genesis, when the Bible says that God made "flying creatures" and "great sea monsters." Perhaps other types of dinosaurs were created in the sixth epoch. The vast array of dinosaurs with their huge appetites would have been appropriate considering the abundant vegetation that evidently existed in their time.-Genesis 1:20-24.
When the dinosaurs had fulfilled their purpose, God ended their life. But the Bible is silent on how he did that or when. We can be sure that dinosaurs were created by God for a purpose, even if we do not fully understand that purpose at this time. They were no mistake, no product of evolution. That they suddenly appear in the fossil record unconnected to any fossil ancestors, and also disappear without leaving connecting fossil links, is evidence against the view that such animals gradually evolved over millions of years of time. Thus, the fossil record does not support the evolution theory. Instead, it harmonizes with the Bible's view of creative acts of God.
The fossil record of the dinosaurs supports not evolution but creation.
Originally posted by asjb
I'm a bit worried about Adam and Eve's kids having sex with each other.
God was not fostering what is now called “incest” by arranging matters so that the first children of Adam would marry one another—brothers marrying sisters. In Adam’s original perfect state his children would have been born in perfection. (Deut. 32:4) There would have been no family weaknesses to be passed on and accentuated by the marriage of near relatives, as is the case today, when the sinful human race has greatly deteriorated and many genetic defects exist. Even after Adam had sinned, his descendants lived as long as 969 years in the days before the Flood.—Gen. 5:27.
Accordingly, it took a long time for genetic defects to become so numerous and so grouped in family lines that it became dangerous to the offspring for close relatives to marry. Even Abraham, some 2,000 years after the creation of Adam, married his half sister. (Gen. 20:12) Not until God gave the Mosaic law (about 500 years later) did He prohibit close family marriage unions among the people of Israel.—Lev. 18:6-18.
[Edited by tbone on 02-17-2001 at 11:22 AM]
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02-17-2001, 12:36 PM
#133
How long does it take to read the entire Bible?
How long does it take to read the entire Bible?
Approximately 70 hours and 40 minutes.
It takes 52 hours and 20 minutes to read the Old Testament
It takes 18 hours, 20 minutes to read the New Testament
The longest Old Testament book is Psalms, taking 4:28 minutes to read.
The longes New Testament book is Luke, taking 2:43 minutes to read.
In Christ,
Julio Hernandez
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02-17-2001, 01:07 PM
#134
War is futile: just drink beer
Re: How long does it take to read the entire Bible?
Originally posted by Julioh
How long does it take to read the entire Bible?
Approximately 70 hours and 40 minutes.
It takes 52 hours and 20 minutes to read the Old Testament
It takes 18 hours, 20 minutes to read the New Testament
The longest Old Testament book is Psalms, taking 4:28 minutes to read.
The longes New Testament book is Luke, taking 2:43 minutes to read.
In Christ,
Julio Hernandez
Oh my! But man! At which speed do you read?????? I spent 10 times more than that to read the whole thing!
Just a few words... it looks like the debate is centered only in the Bible. Why don't we forget the equation:
ifTheBibleis100%Right (godExists);
ifTheBiblecontainsFlaws (godIsChimera);
stop;
The debate about if the Bible is this or that is unsolved and will remain unsolved. Why don't we try to deviate the debate into a more positive approach?
For example, a question:
Can Christians, Atheists, Muslims, Buddhists, etc... work together for a better world?
Or shall we try to hide in our personal close "ghettos" and forget that if we unite, tomorrow will be brighter?
I want tomorrow to be brighter. I owe it to myson Jacob and my daughter Emma. And I will work hand by hand with those that want a better tomorrow.
Other considerations seem superfluous to me, but of course that is... IMHO! (I love that IMHO thing!)
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02-17-2001, 01:11 PM
#135
Originally posted by Mad-Sci
Originally posted by agent vivid
Originally posted by dagrom
think about it...
children of Horses? -> little horses (ponies)
children of Bears? -> little bears (cubs)
children of Cows? -> little cows (calfs)
children of God? -> little gods (us)
...
-dag
it seems to me that this type of thinking is exactly the reason why humans (homosapiens) have fallen out of balance with the rest of the world...
thinking that we are 'godlike' when we aren't is ... well ... naive
Actually we are the minority on this planet. For example take all the viruses and make them big as a beetle for example they will cover the entire globe with the lown 15 km in height..Besides that a something wich is visible only with electron microscope will kill us for about a 2 weeks ( Ebola virus ) and we cant do anything. Go figure who is the smartest...
mad_sci
there is a major distinction between the animals and people. first of all humans were gods crowning creation. animals don't have the ability to choose their actions and people do. think about it. if you throw stuff at animals they react. they cannot choose to sit there and take it (unless they're dead) people have a choice in the matter. no matter what anyone's circumstances are people have the power to choose to be happy (or to be hit by rocks thrown at them)
i guess what i'm saying is that free agency is truly the only thing we have to call our own. i don't think people realize the potential they posses because they have the power to choose their own destiny.
bacteria can't get together and decide how to build weapons of mass destruction. people unfortunatly can. but people can also study the elements do experiments and learn enough about their surrounding to build computers.
i believe their will be much more powerful technologies in heaven when we have all progressed to near perfection. i believe that progression never ends even after death (unless you end up in hell which is the main reason why hell is so bad. can you imagine living forever and not being able to progress?)
i hope i didn't sound earlier like i thought i was God. i was just trying to get the people on this board to realize their true potential as God's children.
(Psalms 82:5-6)
"They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course. I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."
i read the Bible a lot but i also read Flash 4 Bible a lot...
anything that can help me to progress and become a better person in my opinion brings me closer to God.
-dag
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02-17-2001, 01:33 PM
#136
Originally posted by dagrom
[Bthere is a major distinction between the animals and people. first of all humans were gods crowning creation. animals don't have the ability to choose their actions and people do. think about it. if you throw stuff at animals they react. they cannot choose to sit there and take it (unless they're dead) people have a choice in the matter. no matter what anyone's circumstances are people have the power to choose to be happy (or to be hit by rocks thrown at them)
i guess what i'm saying is that free agency is truly the only thing we have to call our own. i don't think people realize the potential they posses because they have the power to choose their own destiny.
bacteria can't get together and decide how to build weapons of mass destruction. people unfortunatly can. but people can also study the elements do experiments and learn enough about their surrounding to build computers.
i believe their will be much more powerful technologies in heaven when we have all progressed to near perfection. i believe that progression never ends even after death (unless you end up in hell which is the main reason why hell is so bad. can you imagine living forever and not being able to progress?)
i hope i didn't sound earlier like i thought i was God. i was just trying to get the people on this board to realize their true potential as God's children.
(Psalms 82:5-6)
"They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course. I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."
i read the Bible a lot but i also read Flash 4 Bible a lot...
anything that can help me to progress and become a better person in my opinion brings me closer to God.
-dag [/B]
people and animals and rocks and your house and the water you drink and the computer you stare at and everything else are composed of ...
the same thing
remember our point of reference... remember how we choose to see the world...
of course, we all want people to recognize that the locus of control lies in the present and our point of power is now
how you choose to get to that level of thinking is up to you... but once you're there, don't get an ego and think that you're any better than something else... just recognize that you are special because you have the ability to make judgements about the future based upon existing conditions and your interpretation of the past...
throwing a rock at a rabid dog a few times will get your arm bitten... try to piss off a bear and see where it gets you... anyway, just as we do, animals choose to react based upon existing conditions, but they live in the present and do not question it... we do...
as far as i'm concerned, (IMHO -- i love it too, phooks, but sometimes you've got to branch out ) we can get along together just fine... esp if we all realize that we are citizens of the world... we all breathe the same air... and we all live by the same basic rules
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02-17-2001, 02:20 PM
#137
vivio
i really didn't mean to sound arrogant at all...
i think it can be limiting though to compare yourself to a bacteria. you are not a single cell organism despite what you may believe.
people choose to act...animals REact. animals can't choose to react, they respond to stimuli.
if someone chooses to hit you, you can choose to hit them back if you want but it wasn't reacting it was choosing a bad action in my opinion. you could also choose not to hit them back which would be a good choice in most situations.
i don't think it's wise or even helpful to assume that we somehow owe something to bacteria because there are more of them and one of them could kill us. don't get me wrong i love animals. i love camping and i would never throw rocks at bears.
here is a quote that i really like from Nelson Mandela's Inaugural Speech in 1994. i'm sure lot's of you have heard it. i read it as a call for everyone everywhere to become a little bit better than they are right now.
"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate, our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us.
We ask ourselves who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, and fabulous. Actually, who are you not to be? You are a child of God. Playing small doesn't serve the world.
There is nothing enlightened about shrinking, so that other people won't feel insecure about you.
We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us. It is not just in some of us; it is in everyone. and as we let our light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same.
As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others."
it's not about perfection only progression.
-dag
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02-17-2001, 02:52 PM
#138
Re: vivio
Originally posted by dagrom
i think it can be limiting though to compare yourself to a bacteria. you are not a single cell organism despite what you may believe.
i agree
it makes me happy to see your optimism
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02-17-2001, 04:13 PM
#139
FK Times - Head Publisher FK Board Heavyweight
Re: vivio
Originally posted by dagrom
people choose to act...animals REact. animals can't choose to react, they respond to stimuli
There are exceptions to every rule. Dolphins are actually very smart and often act as a human would, sometimes better. They just mapped the human gene and found (surprisingly) that humans are 99% the same as most other animals on this planet. We have no way of knowing how some animals communicate, for all you know they might be more advanced in some areas as man. Only man is so arrogant as to think he is at the top of the totem pole.
Now let's pass the hat
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02-17-2001, 09:43 PM
#140
Senior Member
Guys, it seems that you dont agree that bacteria a more well adapted to the environment and far more advanced than the humans ? You sad they cannot build weapons for mass destruction...true they kill far more efficiently...take for example Tuberculosis...8.000.000 new cases / year, and check this out 1/3 of the human population is a carrier of the disease.
( reference WHO: http://www.who.int/inf-fs/en/fact104.html )
As human what can you do about it...nothing. You can make drugs against it and this is when they really come together and make drug resistant bacili..Bacteria can live with no water, no food, can form spores, can live in radiation even eat radioactive substances they can live at high/low temperatures...etc.. which one of those things we, the humans, can do...Even now 21 century the peak of the human civilization, with all the advance technologies still we cannot fight a single bacteria.
ms
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