Ok... I'm really in the dark. Holocaust doubters?

[gerbick]

Ok. Last year Ahmadinejad came out and said that he doubted the Holocaust - either that it existed in the scale as historically before or not, that's not the focus.

I'm just... well, surprised to see Iran talk about protecting David Duke and other Holocaust doubters.

Instead of the usual suspects—deputy ministers and the like—the invitees seem to have included David Duke, a former Ku Klux Klan leader; Georges Thiel, a Frenchman who has called the Holocaust "an enormous lie"; and Fredrick Töben, a German-born Australian whose specialty is the denial of Nazi gas chambers. The guest list was selective: No one with any academic eminence, or indeed any scholarly credentials, was invited...

And yet—this week's event has some new elements, too. This is, after all, an international conference, with foreign participants, formal themes ("How did the Zionists collaborate with Hitler?" for example), and a purpose that goes well beyond a mere denunciation of Israel. Because some former Nazi countries have postwar laws prohibiting Holocaust denial, Iran has declared this "an opportunity for thinkers who cannot express their views freely in Europe about the Holocaust." If the West is going to shelter Iranian dissidents, then Iran will shelter David Duke. If the West is going to pretend to support freedom of speech, then so will Iran. Heckled for the first time in many months by demonstrators at a rally yesterday, Ahmadinejad responded by calling the hecklers paid American agents: "Today, the worst type of dictatorship in the world is the American dictatorship, clothed in human rights." The American dictatorship, clothed in human rights spouting falsified history: It's the kind of argument you can hear quite often nowadays, in Iran as well as Russia and Venezuela, not to mention the United States.

Ok... now the inclusion David Duke really lowers the standards on how much attention should be paid to this... but what's the academic merit to all of this?

I won't lie to any of you... I sometimes doubt the final numbers sometimes, 6 million at a time where that would have been a huge city in the US now... but still. Just thought I'd ask if you guys knew how serious this was.

Read more here...

Feeling sorta stupid right now. I just never knew that this was internationally serious.

[Loyal Rogue]

Bah, whatever they can do we can do better.
I say let's stay one step ahead of the rest of the kooks.
I propose we start an investigation into the great myth of black slavery and the ridiculous notion that there were native Americans before the Pilgrims.
After that, we can work our way up to denying the existence of air, water, the sun, and global warming... oops, nevermind, looks like we've already been beat to that last one by the government... crap... and who says Bush isn't a visionary...?

[PAlexC]

Really good article in the current New Yorker about how "the war on terror" is really an information war, about messages, influence and persuasion. "Their" goal is to take regional conflicts and attempt to unify them as one global war against the west. Ahmadinejad is obviously trying to play into it, using his position on the world stage to 1.) rally anti-Israeli sentiment and 2.) pose himself as being a serious enemy of the U.S. ideologically.

Dumb f*cker shot himself in the foot inviting David Duke, pretty funny. I hope this is a catalyst to knock him out of power from within. The majority of Iranians must be getting sick of being typecast because of their leadership.

[Visionray]

To me this whole thing seems like one huge joke.

I honestly am surprised that the president of Iran has the time to be part of a conference like this. Seriously now, does he have nothing better to do? And for what purpose? To get a bunch of similar minded ignorants together so they can all stroke each other's backs.

David Duke, yeah there's a winner. That's like inviting Ann Coulter to head up the Iraq Study Group and hoping to get some kind of objective analysis. I have an idea, let's set up a conference to determine if Bush is an idiot. We'll invite Michael Moore to be the keynote speaker.

[FlashLackey]

It's kind of like the Imam that was recently on the news for his airline protest. Apparently, after 9/11, he made a bunch of complaints with the police saying that Americans had been throwing shoes at Muslim kids going to a mosque. Yes, the traditional insult that Americans tend to engage in is to throw their shoes. Happens all the time.

[MechaPiano]

well, let's think about it: what did Jews get out of Holocaust? A country. A whole @#$%ing country! Good enough to fake it (but I'm not saying that they did).

[mc_flash]

man..that's just stupid..i am from germany..IT HAPPENED. ****ing Nazis who say it didn't happen.

[MechaPiano]

ok so what, just because you're from Germany, it means you know better?
were you there? did you see it happen?

here's an example for you:
I live in Latvia and I'm Russian. now russian media keeps on talking how evil Latvians are towards Russians, how hard it is for me to live in Latvia. BS! they lie BIG TIME! but the funny thing is that they actually made whole Russia think that I'm being treated like **** here. media made Russians think that Latvia is the most hostile country towards Russians and it's BS! and it's happening today while there are facts that it isn't so! now what about history? do you really think it's hard fake history?

[MagnusVS]

do you really think it's hard fake history?

MechaPiano. You should take a trip to Auschwitz Birkenau and see if you still think it's so easy to fake.

[cancerinform]

I grew up in Germany after the war and we had the feeling of guilt for what happened. I still kind of feel bad what the country, where I grew up has done. People like Ahmadinejad are just stupid and put themselves on the same low level as the Ku Klux Klan or the Neonazis. This guy is getting too much attention. The press should just ignore him. My guess is that he will not be reelected.

[gerbick]

So... are you saying that it could be faked?

How would you prove/disprove that so many years later?

[MechaPiano]

So... are you saying that it could be faked?

yes! easy. take 1984, USSR propaganda machines worked the same way (and they worked). every now and then I find some old newspapers and not only they are filled with the stupidest anti US krap (that everyone believed), but they also feature "historical facts" and statistics to support any major CK descision. those are the saddest pieces of paper.

do I think that Holocaust is a fake? no. do I think that Bush is behind 911? no. but do I think that both events were twisted and missrepresented to achieve "some goals"? yes.

How would you prove/disprove that so many years later?

Stephen Colbert is a genius, he got it right - if enough people believe that something is true (for any reason), then who are the rest to tell them they are wrong? (and so we have religion and disfunctional democracy) And as Dawkins said - you can't absolutely disprove anything from the scientific point of view. so, basically, it really doesn't matter what the truth is. it really doesn't, as long as people believe they are right about someting (and it can be absolutely anything).

[TheOriginalFlashDavo]

Stephen Colbert is a genius, he got it right - if enough people believe that something is true (for any reason), then who are the rest to tell them they are wrong? (and so we have religion and disfunctional democracy) And as Dawkins said - you can't absolutely disprove anything from the scientific point of view. so, basically, it really doesn't matter what the truth is. it really doesn't, as long as people believe they are right about someting (and it can be absolutely anything).

Or, to put simply, history is written by the victors.

[MagnusVS]

yes! easy. take 1984, USSR propaganda machines worked the same way (and they worked). every now and then I find some old newspapers and not only they are filled with the stupidest anti US krap (that everyone believed), but they also feature "historical facts" and statistics to support any major CK descision. those are the saddest pieces of paper.

Well. Just to point out one BIG difference. When it comes to holocaust, there are more than just newspapers. What about the concentration camps? It be impossible to make up something like the holocaust if it hadn't taken place.
And except from all the concentration camps that's still open for visitors, what about the survivors? Would it be easy to make tens of thousands of survivors and eye witnesses to tell the same story about how they were tortured?

It wouldn't be easy. It would be impossible.

[MechaPiano]

It wouldn't be easy. It would be impossible.

Oh yes,
concentration camps. There's just no way you can fake those. No sir! No way. Not even the one we have a few kilometers from here, the one that was called a prison during the WWII (the Abu Grape type of prison) and then suddenly transformed into an "evil concentration camp" during USSR and later. And funny how the word "concentration camp" is only associated with Jews, like the people of other nationalities never been there. And surely what they say is a 100% truth.

I'm done here. If you don't get my point by now then there's really no need for me to bother.

[Ultima Designs]

Oh yes,
concentration camps. There's just no way you can fake those. No sir! No way. Not even the one we have a few kilometers from here, the one that was called a prison during the WWII (the Abu Grape type of prison) and then suddenly transformed into an "evil concentration camp" during USSR and later. And funny how the word "concentration camp" is only associated with Jews, like the people of other nationalities never been there. And surely what they say is a 100% truth.

I'm done here. If you don't get my point by now then there's really no need for me to bother.

I get your point. Being Jewish and knowing people/family members who lost loved ones in the Holocaust, your point(s) are offensive if not outright disgusting.

[cancerinform]

Oh yes,
concentration camps. There's just no way you can fake those. No sir! No way. Not even the one we have a few kilometers from here, the one that was called a prison during the WWII (the Abu Grape type of prison) and then suddenly transformed into an "evil concentration camp" during USSR and later. And funny how the word "concentration camp" is only associated with Jews, like the people of other nationalities never been there. And surely what they say is a 100% truth.

I'm done here. If you don't get my point by now then there's really no need for me to bother.

Concentration camps were built immediately when A. Hitler came to power in 1933 initially for political prisoners and also for Jews. Later after the war started there were many war prisoners in camps. In 1941/42 extinction camps were built, which are different from the concentration camps. They were hidden from the outside and had gas chambers. Officially the gas chambers were claimed to kill lice and other insects and diseases in clothes from prisoners. However, there were also "shower" rooms and in those Jews, mentally retarded, handicapped, Serbs and others were killed. The Nazis needed a "quick solution" to the mass killing, which they found in the gas chambers. The chambers were close to a crematorium to burn the dead bodies.

[TheOriginalFlashDavo]

Faked Holocaust.
Jewish New World Order.
Muslim Brotherhood plan for world domination.

Same crap, different shade. You'll always get those who want to argue extremes of everything, no matter the subject or evidence otherwise. Human nature (a.k.a. idiocy).

I respect someone's right to discuss any possibility, however far fetched. I don't respect anyone that chooses to abuse that right when it can cause harm and damage to groups of people.

[gerbick]

I'm still curious. How could this be harmful to others?

Given the list of "experts" in attendance, there will not be anything ground-breaking coming out of this seminar or inquiry. David Duke is like the testosterone and more connected version of Pauline Hanson.

[TheOriginalFlashDavo]

I'm still curious. How could this be harmful to others?

I wasn't so much referring to this meeting, more about the wider abuse of freedom of speech when alienating certain groups of people. Sorry that wasn't more clear...