Buying local vs. Trade as aid

[MagnusVS]

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[TheOriginalFlashDavo]

No. I'm advocating that we should have solid evidence that an action is effective in helping people if we already know for certain that it will also harm other people.

So you don't believe there's solid evidence that our burning of fossil fuels, degradation of natural forests and bushland, and use and disposal of plastics and other non-biodegradable products is causing damage to our planet and environment?

[FlashLackey]

So you don't believe there's solid evidence that our burning of fossil fuels, degradation of natural forests and bushland, and use and disposal of plastics and other non-biodegradable products is causing damage to our planet and environment?

It's more complicated than that. I do think that the modern environmentalist movement is littered with fraudulent claims, hyperbole and superstition. But, I'm certain that some things we do do cause harm to the environment. However, the more important question is how much of it can we live without before the cost of doing so is greater than the benefit that we derive?

[For example, if the net result of not using plastic bags is so marginal that it makes no difference toward anything that affects humans in a significant way, it would not be worth impoverishing humans over.]

[TheOriginalFlashDavo]

It's more complicated than that. I do think that the modern environmentalist movement is littered with fraudulent claims, hyperbole and superstition.

As is the other extreme of those who place most importance on money. You act like this isn't characteristic of both sides??

But, I'm certain that some things we do do cause harm to the environment. However, the more important question is how much of it can we live without before the cost of doing so is greater than the benefit that we derive?

[For example, if the net result of not using plastic bags is so marginal that it makes no difference toward anything that affects humans in a significant way, it would not be worth impoverishing humans over.]

I think most reasonably folk concerned about the environment would agree with. But for the example you give, the issue is a no brainer. No one "needs" plastic bags, it is purely to cater for our laziness in not carrying something to carry products with, and in wanting everything as "cheap" as can be. You're right, there needs to be a balance, and one of those "balances" is realising that we may have to pay a couple of cents extra per product for better packaging, and be a little bit less lazy in our day to day living. I hardly think that's an extreme act.

I don't know what the practice is in the US, but in Australia you're now expected to bring your own cloth bag shopping, or else pay extra for a plastic bag. I think that's fair enough, so long as some of that extra money is then going to address the impact on the environment that bag has made.

And in Kenya of all places, they've just outlawed plastic bags. Yep, outlawed them. If you're caught with a plastic bag in Nairobi you can be arrested and/or fined. Implemented just a bit too fast (like, immediate effect) for those with bags in stock and manufacturers, but that aside very far sighted of them. Plastic bags are a HUGE environmental issue in Kenya, a country that relies very heavily on tourists interested in the natural environment for their national economy.

[FlashLackey]

I think most reasonably folk concerned about the environment would agree with. But for the example you give, the issue is a no brainer. No one "needs" plastic bags, it is purely to cater for our laziness in not carrying something to carry products with, and in wanting everything as "cheap" as can be. You're right, there needs to be a balance, and one of those "balances" is realising that we may have to pay a couple of cents extra per product for better packaging, and be a little bit less lazy in our day to day living. I hardly think that's an extreme act.

The problem is that you are making sweeping decisions for other people. It's a slippery slope to enter the arena of dictating what other people need.

I don't know what the practice is in the US, but in Australia you're now expected to bring your own cloth bag shopping, or else pay extra for a plastic bag. I think that's fair enough, so long as some of that extra money is then going to address the impact on the environment that bag has made.

You can choose paper or plastic here at most grocery stores.

People, in masses, seem to frequently take for granted that what they are told (often by politicians) is true. It seems to me that the motivating force behind banning bags, etc. is to feel good about ourselves, regardless of the merit of the activity. It's as if you prescribe faith in it or not. Hence the similarity to astrology.

[TheOriginalFlashDavo]

The problem is that you are making sweeping decisions for other people. It's a slippery slope to enter the arena of dictating what other people need.

Unfortunately the environment is a shared issue, whether you or others like that or not. So at some stage or other, so long as the issue is rationalised and all important aspects taken into consideration, someone somewhere is going to be "told" what to do if what they are doing is harming others.

Happens for speeding drivers.
Happens for underage sex.
Happens for many other examples I'm sure you or I can think of.

You can choose paper or plastic here at most grocery stores.

Well the rest of the world is moving ahead. Better catch up or you'll be left behind!

You should do a bit of research into the business environment efforts in Australia, one thing I'm quite proud of my country for. Has hardly been "bad" for business, and has actually created a lot of employment. Still a long way to go, but progress nonetheless...

[FlashLackey]

One thing I know is bad for me is to stay up way too late.

It's been a good one!

[TheOriginalFlashDavo]

And I have an annual report to finish tonight before flying out to Canada tomorrow!!

You always do this to me!!

Cheers.

[MagnusVS]

What are you going to do in Canada?

[FlashLackey]

And I have an annual report to finish tonight before flying out to Canada tomorrow!!

You always do this to me!!

Cheers.

I did this to you?! You did this to me!

Have a safe flight and enjoy Canada.

[Visionray]

I guess they can raise it to a certain degree, but trade is important. And import is just as important as export.

of course it is, but it seems your implying that the World Bank isn't involved in facilitating trade?

www.worldbank.org/trade
http://go.worldbank.org/C9G060LTB0
http://go.worldbank.org/XXCAUR4L00

You can't import anything when you don't have the money to pay for it, right?

[MagnusVS]

I haven't implied anything. The posts I've written and read in this thread have been about economic theory, leaving the world bank, imf etc. out of the picture.

You have to export to be able to import yes. They're equally important