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SpecialD
01-29-2001, 04:18 PM
I have been inspired!!!

After reading about this whole "clients who don't pay" thing, I ran off and registered http://www.theydontpay.org. I'm buidling it right now and it will eventually (couple of days) be totally automated.You'll be able to fill out your name, client's name/company, amount outstanding and any additional notes.

It'll be a searchable database through which other artists will be able to research potential clients.

A BBB for the design community, if you will.

Now for the important part:

ANYONE WHO WANTS TO HELP-- please tell me what you think would be a good addition to the site aside from the database. I was thinking of state-by-state design contracts for one.

I'm off to code!

Have a good day---
-Alana

UpNorth
01-29-2001, 05:50 PM
What a great idea!!! What's a nugat?

derrickito
01-29-2001, 07:24 PM
you know blacklisting people was outlawed back in the day in the industrial revolution

sounds like exactly what you are doing here.

you would be making a site where people could post information, faulty or true, that could open yourself up to TONS and loads of slander and libel suits.

sounds like a really bad idea to me

zacvin
01-29-2001, 07:40 PM
I see what derrickito is saying, but I think that you can get around it. Just make a way for the business that are being "blacklisted" to post their site of the story. Say that you are making the site a "forum" so that both sides can tell their story.

IN REALITY THOUGH...
Most business will probally never know about the site or that they can reply, and the few that do reply will only look stuped.

Still, you would probally want a BIG disclamer on your site saying that you do not have controll over what other people post. Of course I am no lawyer, but I don't think that anyone can acuse you of "blacklisting" someone if you are really just "providing a place for each side to tell their side".

Anyway, good luck
[Edited by zacvin on 01-29-2001 at 06:47 PM]

CNO
01-29-2001, 10:22 PM
Hey, there's a popular website called f-ed company (fill in the blanks) that has just this type of rumor-mongering and is quite popular, and Matt Drudge's conservative gossip column broke the Clinton-Lewinsky deal - this is the age of Internet "news".

What would be nice is if you had a complimentary section where people could do background checks on companies that were good to work for.

Or, what about the designers who don't deliver what was promised, or whos companies go under before a project is done?

Juztyn
01-29-2001, 10:49 PM
I can understand the enthusiasm for setting up a site like this, but it is definitely not the right way to go about it.

A site like this would be totally ineffectual because it would have zero credibility - you are asking people to 'take your word for it' when posting claims no-one can verify.

You are also opening up the possibility that honest companies could be 'sabotaged' by competitors anonymously trying to stop people from doing work for them.

The best solution is found in what the contributors to this thread were already doing - suggesting ways of avoiding the outcome of 'they don't pay' from the outset.

SpecialD
01-31-2001, 01:39 PM
I've begun working on the site. I intend to have disclaimers all over the place. It's merely a forum to rate your freelance clients. It will be completely automated. I don't imagine that anyone is going to put their name, e-mail address (and the ip address by as well, natch), unless they have really tried everything.

I know I have 2 clients who I've given up on after a year of attempts to collect my debts from them. One guy threatened me physically and said that he'd like to see me try to make him pay me. -Being a woman, I naturally felt pretty scared of the guy. He's a real jerk. But I have no doubt that was his intention.

This isn't blacklisting. I'm not a third party collector and am not governed by the FDCPA. (Federal Fair Debt Collections Act). As far as the law is concerned, if someone owes me money, I can hunt them down and call their neighbors if I want to go to that trouble.

As far as people posting things that aren't true, I would hope that you'd have to be fairly honest to be frustrated enough to post something like that. I don't think that most people are going to lie about something of this nature. Especially when it's so easy to track them down and the liability that would be involved on their part.

If you can call the BBB and find out if someone has filed a complaint against a business before dealing with them, I fail to see where this is all that much different.

Anyway--- I'm putting this out there for people to use or not use. Controversial as it may be.

-Alana

SpecialD
01-31-2001, 01:53 PM
What would be nice is if you had a complimentary section where people could do background checks on companies that were good to work for.

>>>great idea. That should be easy enough to add.

Or, what about the designers who don't deliver what was promised, or whos companies go under before a project is done? [/B][/QUOTE]

>>>I would think (but then I'm a smart and honest person) that a designer would not have the balls to ***** if he/she didn't deliver what was promised. But then I'm never that shocked by what people think they have coming to them anymore.

As far as businesses that go under. By going under, I assume you mean file BK. If they do, well, then no harm no foul. That's what BK is there for, right? It sucks and we all get smacked by that at one time or another. But that's something you just have to suck up.

Now-- NUGAT--- it's that caramell-ish stuff in a Snickers bar.

:)

-A

CNO
01-31-2001, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by SpecialD
Or, what about the designers who don't deliver what was promised, or whos companies go under before a project is done?

I was referring more to an area where businesses could post their bad experiences. There are plenty of new businesses and "design companies" [of one person] who are all hot air.

And what happens if a business works for a startup, commits time to them, then gets stuck when the pre-IPO dissolves because it can't pay for the 25 foosball tables?

Or even independent companies who try to put together a team of, say, freelancers, and get screwed out of a deal by one. (Remember - contracts, people!)

Just trying to help you maybe flesh out the idea.

SpecialD
01-31-2001, 02:53 PM
You're bringing up some very interesting and worthwhile ideas. I really appreciate the input. Thanks! :)

I think for now, as a phase one of the site and not to make it a huge mountain for one person to pull together, I'm going to aim the usage towards singlular freelancers. -Those who have old debts that they know they will never collect out of straight refusal by a client.

--That's not to say that once it's up and running that I can't add all those other tools.

Disclaimers. Right now it seems to be all about disclaimers. All this site is is a centralized database of informationt that's already being posted all around the web.

-A (who doesn't really care for nugat right now. I'm pregnant and it repulses me.)

UKFlash
02-03-2001, 08:41 AM
Originally posted by zacvin
I see what derrickito is saying, but I think that you can get around it. Just make a way for the business that are being "blacklisted" to post their site of the story. Say that you are making the site a "forum" so that both sides can tell their story.

IN REALITY THOUGH...
Most business will probally never know about the site or that they can reply, and the few that do reply will only look stuped.

Still, you would probally want a BIG disclamer on your site saying that you do not have controll over what other people post. Of course I am no lawyer, but I don't think that anyone can acuse you of "blacklisting" someone if you are really just "providing a place for each side to tell their side".

Anyway, good luck
[Edited by zacvin on 01-29-2001 at 06:47 PM]

No-one who appears on watchdog here in the UK can sue for slander, libel or blacklisting. They can complain if the complaint is unjustified, but they can't sue. comsumer power wins again..

a_slosh
02-07-2001, 07:18 AM
I think you could get into a lot of trouble by doing this, legally.

Check with someone in your area, about whether this is legal or not and then put a disclaimer on your site saying that it is legal in your area. Also check if where the server is located also matters.

If I was you, I wouldn't do this.

I was going to design a James Bond site and couldn't because of legal issues (copyright etc.) so I think yours would have a higher possibility of getting into trouble with the law.

DJ_SFinKz
02-07-2001, 08:19 AM
Whats he gponna get? a $200 dollar fine? Well at least doing it this way he would get his bad clients into court....

Im going with this idea - sounds promising!

DJ_SFinKz
02-07-2001, 08:20 AM
ahhhh....i meant to say gonna

NETbreed
02-15-2001, 09:57 PM
Hiya!

I like the idea behind this - though I would be a little worried about the possibility of abuse of the system. Since you [personally] cannot verify the information submitted, you are never going to know which are fake and which are real claims. Thus, the system is open to those of questionable moral fibre such as:


Disgruntled employees - maybe they wanted to do the web design :D
Business rivals - for reasone mentioned earlier
Teenage layabouts - for fun :D
Dodgy Freelancers - looking to clinch a deal on a contract that's out to tender to other freelancers!


Despite all this I would like to see such a site in operation and I praise you for your efforts!

A nice addition would be a section that discusses ways to avoid getting into the situation where you're not getting paid [contracts & staggered payments] and first steps fo dealing with it if it does happen [debt collection agencies etc]. This kinda seems like you'll be taking away the need for [and thus the visitors to] the site but if we can stamp on this kind of thing then the world will be a better place!

That it!

Regards,

Steve

studio249
02-16-2001, 11:41 AM
thats a fabulous idea, you might get some real support by making the graphic artists guild of new york aware of your site, and if you need any help please let me know. Personally I have had one deadbeat client that I'd like to list.I know a good collections lawfirm in California, but you have to have a legitimate p.o. for them to proceed on a legal basis. Its good for substantial amounts. I sued for 8000 and paid a 25 percent fee. The lawfirm set up a pay schedule with the delinquent client, and they had problems
and had to make numerous calls each time a payment was due, I don't know how I would have ever collected as I'm in NY. They told me that they had to tell the client they'd be there with a marshall to haul out the office equipment if they didn't ante up.
2.I'd also like to see a 'butchered and maimed' portion of the site where you could list clients who have butchered and degraded the work beyond all acceptable standards.
3.Further a portion that contains work for hire contracts-I can submit one of these for you, which I refused to sign.
4.Also I would be glad to submit my illustration confirmation contract. Unfortunately there are so many
webdesigners who will agree to unlimited revisions for a flat fee, that it makes it very difficult for any of us who would rather be paid after 2 rounds.

And in conclusion, I think that any webdesigner who is in anyway contributing to any clip art or resale bulk interface
design outfit, should really think again. There are many,
many photographers and illustrators who are out work because
of the volume of cheap clip art and photos.It took 5-10
years for this to occur and really have a far reaching impact.

studio249
02-16-2001, 03:22 PM
ALSO:a special "project manager or used car salesman,you be the judge, section."

dragonlord
02-19-2001, 09:36 AM
Why not have some kind of login to prevent from abuse and spam and the like of that? You be the judge of who can and who can´t submit...! And also, optionally, let the freelancers who´re submitting a company put their names under and send a mail to the company, like "You´re listed on the http://www.TheyDontPay.org" or something, maybe that will make some companys pay... Just some thoughts...
I´m with you, although you might get some legal problems, as everyone says, but we´re behind you! :)
Good Luck!

//Gustaf

Boris the Frog
02-20-2001, 03:05 PM
I love this idea - well it made me laugh.

I understand the seriousness of getting into the legal wranglings but I would love to vent some of the frustration that comes with people who don't pay.

Call it theraputic!

I recently worked in an impossible environment and the only way to cope was to set up the WoW campaign in the office.
(****er of the Week)
When they didn't pay they got points, when they didn't deliver content and got p*ssed about the delay they got points, when they asked three people to work on one pc, they got points (you get the picture) after a month we gave the winner a certificate, we just put WOW on it and he didn't ask what it was for - he just hung it on the wall.

It really ought to include a hall of shame where the sad stories that hant our working existance can be aired and we can start to heal our wounds.

Plus cures for stress and post frustration munchies!!!!!!!

I prefer a big bowl of ice cream and something I can hit.
Good luck with the site - I will use it I don't doubt!