http://www.escapistmagazine.com/issue/34/3
read it, think, and if you have sold a game to miniclip recently, think again ...
nGFX
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http://www.escapistmagazine.com/issue/34/3
read it, think, and if you have sold a game to miniclip recently, think again ...
nGFX
That quote scares me to death, especially since I don't have time to work on my own games very much. I'm lucky if I get a few hours in on the weekends.Quote:
"What the current thinking is going to do, if it continues, is annihilate any nascent sense of community in this field. Ask yourself this: If you had a good original game idea right now, mocked up in a prototype form but not completed, how comfortable would you be posting it in the Indie Gamer forums? Would you suspect - rightly - that rather than getting constructive feedback and criticism, you'd instead be giving a bunch of people a head start in ripping you off?"
This article also proves why I don't have a head for casual portal game design. While I don't mind reusing an engine's functionality, I don't see the point in making the exact same game over and over again, and MAYBE improving it a little bit each time. To me, that is truly boring, and uninteresting. I have enough trouble finishing a game concept of mine, if someone posts a demo which is similar to it. My game concept instantly become uninteresting because someone else is doing it.
I've seen games on a few game portals where someone takes their successful game and rereleases it with only the graphics altered. To me, it's just the same engine over and over again, and the author never really improves any of the flaws in the system or tries anything new or different.
-pXw
You quoted the exact same paragraph that caught my eye too.
I am in the planning stages right now to enter this "Casual Games" market as well. (I've already dabbled in it independantly, but never to the full extent of a "Popcap" or "Gamehouse") and I can honestly say that I would NOT post my progress here or anywhere else for exactly those reasons. It's a shame not to get feedback and tips, but also just a reality of the industry.
Story:
Back in 2000 I posted my game "Spore Cubes" here in Flashkit's arcade (yeah, Flashkit used to have an "arcade"). I posted it with the purpose of showing it off and getting some exposure. It was in the top 10 games for a while and even hit #1. Within a few months later, Gamehouse released "Collapse"!
Yeah makes you think twice about posting alpha's and beta's but its good to get that sort of feedback before you release something. To bad you cant copyright a game idea.
It just shows there is money to be made with casual games. As long most games where done by individuals or small teams they didnt bother with cloning for the very reason - cloning is not interesting and not fun. Now that big game companies are producing casual games for money they are doing it for only one reason and that is to earn money. Its exactly same why we almost never see new ideas in big games. Just how many games released last year were innovative? Lets say 5 from thousands of titles. And none of the innovative games sell too well.
People want to buy same old stuff over and over again, so game companies give them same old stuff. "The Top Selling PS2 Games of 2005":
http://ps2.ign.com/articles/684/684395p1.html
You wont find any really new game ideas in top 50. Its all same stuff that has been made for last 20 years.
"I've seen games on a few game portals where someone takes their successful game and rereleases it with only the graphics altered. To me, it's just the same engine over and over again, and the author never really improves any of the flaws in the system or tries anything new or different."
Oops, that'll be me :)
I have no qualms about posting wip here, it's what this place is for. I think I've only ever done one or two fairly original games ( Not counting the Jamie Kane stuff, but they're not strictly games as such ) and I honestly can't see that changing any time soon.
I am one of those people in the article who takes an old genre and re-works it I'm afraid to say, and yep it does mean that gameplay ( Development wise ) isn't as big an issue as with a totally original game.
As olli pointed out so well, the miniclip stats are huge, something to keep very much in mind when looking to sell / licence or even sponsor a game ( And not just with them ).
Squize.
yup. not to mention that if you show YOUR version (which might have been there earlier), it feels like a "ripoff".Quote:
My game concept instantly become uninteresting because someone else is doing it.
eek. that's bad.Quote:
hit #1. Within a few months later, Gamehouse released "Collapse"!
yep, that might be the reason why so many "professionals" left the board or only post a "release" msg ...Quote:
Yeah makes you think twice about posting alpha's and beta's but its good to get that sort of feedback before you release something.
the question is: is it your idea or something that has been done 20 year earlier? think about it and you'll come to the result that not many really "new" games have been released since pong.Quote:
To bad you cant copyright a game idea.
nGFX
Let me clarify, I'm only really talking about games done in Flash. You base your stuff on old C64 games, and let's face it, how many casual gamers are hardcore enough to remember or - uhm - (How should I put it to not get censored...) locate a C64 and play the games there?Quote:
Originally Posted by Squize
If it's new to them, then it's a new idea.
Here's an example of what I mean:
I have yet to see a remake of Elevator Action in Flash. If I see someone make Elevator Action in Flash, I don't think "Hey, that's just Elevator Action!", I usually think, "Now why the heck didn't I think of that?" and if the game is good then "Nice show!"
HOWEVER, if the same author then takes the exact SAME engine and releases "Space Elevator Action", "Medival Elevator Action", "Elevator Action 2!", "Love in an Elevator", "Christmas Elevator Action", "British Elevator Action", "Dance Dance Elevator Action" with nothing really changed but the sprites to the same game portal(s) (and with in a short time period), I'll just shrug my shoulder. Since games are a hobby for me, I'd get bored doing that.*
This also doesn't include people who take an idea which is everywhere (like a snake game) and do something unique with it (Like mBenny's Serpent). Or do a better looking and better playing version of a game which is everywhere (Like typical Breakout games vs Inkanoid (Both games named can be played on http://www.pnFlashgames.com, by the way)).
I think it's even worse to copy a simple idea that is everywhere already. How many clones of Boulder Dash exist in Flash? Bejewelled?
-pXw
*Of course, if someone comes to me with money and asks me to make a game like such-and-such game, I'd glad discuss stuff with them. ;)
If people haven't seen it, then it's new to them. For example, I love JBJ Sisters! I think it's a really fine game and to me, it was a fresh and new. Yep, it's based on a older game, but I didn't know that when I played it.Quote:
Originally Posted by nGFX
great. NOW you spoilt my next game ...Quote:
I have yet to see a remake of Elevator Action in Flash.
not as many as you believe, but bejewelled is ALL over the place (even i can remember about 10 different versions on a single "unamed" game portal)Quote:
How many clones of Boulder Dash exist in Flash?
nGFX
I don't think there's any great difference between copying an old 8 bit game and a popular flash game. It's still plagarism even if less people know about it.
I have to agree with Squize on this one. Hand on my heart I don't think I can point to a single game I've done as being original. They're all just different takes on other games if not direct reskins. For my job I would for an online agency and when they don't just say redo X game with the clients brand they always want game ideas that you can readily show off, and that means established games that we know work. (I just did a clone of boulder dash for a client's site btw)
As to posting stuff on this forum, if I had a great, fantastic new idea there's no way I would put it up here before it was finished and up. I've actually been a bit queesy about posting up any WIP since a beta version of Alpha Force (a generic side scrolling shooter game I did a while back) was taken and spread around the rip off sites.
Willoughby stops making his Elevator Action clone... :pQuote:
Originally Posted by nGFX
My issue isn't really plagarism per se. As nGFX noted, there are no real original gameplay ideas per se anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by happinessSam
I just think this kind of thing adds to the "Flash games sucks" attitude I've run into with a lot of indie game developers with use other languages. Hell, the IT group at the College I went to said that Actionscript wasn't a real programming language.
As I noted before, if a client told me to make Pacman, I'd make Pacman. But I'm also the type of guy who'd attempt to use the infamous Hollywood combo speech. "Well, what if we add jumping and other power-ups.. it would be like Pacman meets Super Mario Brothers!" (Depending upon time and budget range...)Quote:
(I just did a clone of boulder dash for a client's site btw)
I'll fully admit, I was mostly ranting about my personal preferences when I'm producing an independent game (which I might try to license to various portals). I just don't have the mindset to recycle my work and only change the graphics. If games were my primary source of income, I'd probably change my tune...
Yeah. I'm a bit worried about that happening to me. There is a genre of game which I love to death and so far, only one other person has even come close to creating a game in Flash for that genre.Quote:
As to posting stuff on this forum, if I had a great, fantastic new idea there's no way I would put it up here before it was finished and up. I've actually been a bit queesy about posting up any WIP since a beta version of Alpha Force (a generic side scrolling shooter game I did a while back) was taken and spread around the rip off sites.
HaHAHAHAH!!!! Thanks!! I needed that!Quote:
Originally Posted by WilloughbyJackson
I know the game I'm working on is going to incorporate a mesh of elements from different games I've played before. But I believe (and hope) it'll feel original overall in the end. Enough for people to remember it.
Just to temper the feelings in this thread though... Let's keep in mind that cloning is nothing new.
Take for example Pong. There were dozens and dozens of knock-offs within the year it was released. Even Atari milked it with versions like "Doctor Pong", "Pong in a Barrel", etc.
Around 1978, space shooters were all the craze. With the exception of the notable successes like Space Invaders, Galaxian and Galaga (and less popular Pheonix, Gorf, etc) there were DOZENS and dozens of derivative arcade shooters. (Ever heard of Cosmic Monsters? Cosmic Gorilla? Magical Spot?) They were all "move your ship and shoot targets" games.
PacMan comes along and all of a sudden you get a bunch of maze games. Donkey Kong brought us "climb and platform jump" and then all of a sudden you had a bunch similar games. Miner 2049'er, Jumpman, Mr Robot, etc were all inspired by DK. Heck you can even see DK influences in Burgertime.
Speaking of C64 games, Spin Dizzy was a clone of Marble Madness. Pogo Joe was a clone of Q*Bert.
But let's also consider that this trend is not even exclusive to the video game industry. Any successful product will see knock-offs. It's one reason why manufacturers have a hard time coping with manufacturing costs. You can't beat the prices if you have it made in China, but at the same time, you face a high risk of counterfeits and knock offs of your product suddenly appearing all over the rest of the world.
Tamagotchi. Bratz dolls. Robot pets. Designer clothing. EVERYTHING gets knocked off if it's succesful. Look at how secretive Nintendo is about its products.
So back to us and games. The issue is that it's SO easy and quick to knock-off a casual game. Average dev time is anywhere from 2 to 6 months. Compare that to the years that go into a console game. If you make games for money, you should be concerned. If you don't, then no big deal.
~Ray
But its also easy and quick to do completely original game. It would take exactly same time, yet we dont see many.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Beez
Not true. It takes alot less time to copy an idea that's been done, than to work out the details of a truly unique concept. There are certain "magic formulas" to what makes a game fun that many people just can't come up with on their own.Quote:
Originally Posted by tonypa
Think about it. If you're in it for the money, but you'll need to invest 2 months of your time, plus 2 months of a graphics artist's time, that's what, anywhere from $16,000 to $20,000 worth of labor. You can either invest that into a proven formula (with added twists) or risk it on a concept that might fall flat on its face. (Or for that matter, because it's a new idea, your dev time will probably double, since you will need to design and re-design the concept until it truly is a fun game people will want to play. Suddenly your $20,000 budget is $40,000, or $60,000... ! Or you might be $20,000 in the hole and find out your concept just plain sucks.)
(I'm not saying I support only cloning, but these are the realities of why original ideas are rare).
I'm much more positive I think, (but I'm pretty new to game-development, maybe not so crumpy).
I think in the future game-development will become an art-form even to music, painting, movies etc nowadays. Why? Interactivity between public and art becomes more and more a must today. Computergames are the best example of interactivity between a player and the visions of an artist.
Gamedevelopment is a child if you compare it to old men like music, movies and art. I'm almost sure still there's room for Elvis Presleys, John Lennons and Piet Mondriaans to stand up in the near future to come up with break-through ideas on game-development. There will be a lot of clones too, but isn't that the same in every scene of art?
Another thing is new technologies, how do you react to those? With the new webcam-features in flash8 you can create an eyetoy: Not yet really inspiring to me, but I don't see revolutionary ideas with it either untill now.
The mouse is a nice example: You can't compare the mouse with a joystick or a keyboard , a mouse does a thing that really differs (It's a real precise instrument). Every 2 weeks I find a flashgame on the web that does something new with mouse movement.(Well, that's in my opinion)
Innovations in technology will come, and you have to jump into it.
Clones will always be around too. I mean, look how many games are "GTA meets" whatever or "Gritty Urban Themed" nowadays. With mainstream games costing thousands of dollars to make and market, people are less willing to take risks (I.E. be more original) because it could spell disaster. Look at poor Majesco Games! They produced the very original (in execution and character design at least) and VERY excellent Psychonauts but it didn't sell very well. A friend of mine said the same thing about that game he which says about most Nintendo games, "It looked childish..." Whatever happened Games For All Ages?
SUPPORT BLUE SKIES GAMING! ;)
Anyhow, clones are much easier to do, HOWEVER, if you program the game right, you can reuse engines without much cloning.
Squize could probably give us more information about this but as far as I know Static Shock is based on the same engine as the Shoot the Hearts game (which is..of course.. the most perfect game in the world Defender.*)
-pXw
* Squize's words about Defender. Some opinions may differ...
"Pazhitnov created Tetris with the help of Dmitry Pavlovsky and Vadim Gerasimov in 1985. The game, first available in the Soviet Union, appeared in the West in 1986. The Soviet bureaucracy licensed and managed Tetris, and advertised it with the slogan "From Russia with Love". Because he was employed by the Soviet government, Pazhitnov did not receive royalties." (source:Wikipedia)
I wonder if anyone knows if Pazhitnov cares about this, or is he just a proud man?
I would be a proud man I guess.
I hate money getting involved with art, and the same I think about game-development.
I used to play in a punkband, we were one of the fastest bands in teh world, we spreaded a political message against this capitalistic system we're living in.
We are globally known, sold more than 30.000 copies of vinyl, and overall it costed us thousands of euros to achieve this, we never made any profit.
We reached our public and I never doubted asking more money. And It felt good.
Why am I telling this? Because I would love to see flashkitforums filtering the words:cost, money, dollar, how much, benefit, etc.etc. for the sake of creating without any other pressure than the sake of creating.
<High fives willough> There's the love right there
Id like to quote from a great book by Paul Arden... Chapter called 'Do not covet your ideas'
"...people are secretive with their ideas. 'Don't tell them thet, they'll take the credit for it.'
The problem with hoarding is you end up living off your reserves. Eventually yo'll become stale.
If you give away everything you have, you are left with nothing. This forces you to look, to be aware, to replenish.
Somehow the more you give away the more comes back to you.
Ideas are open knowledge. Don't claim ownership.
They're not your ideas anyway, they're someone else's. They are out there floating by on the ether.
You just have to put yourself in a frame of mind to pick them up."
[m]